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The "Bride of Christ" Is Not the Church

Updated on January 29, 2015

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The Bride of Christ

Who is this "Bride of Christ"?
Who is this "Bride of Christ"? | Source

Do you still believe women should not be pastors or leaders in the church? Do you still believe healing was for the early church? Do you still believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was for the early church and not for the body of Christ today also?

Many of the church's views on these doctrinal pillars have been revised in recent years. With a spirit of honest examination, the church has realized that they were not quite right. With that said, I believe its time to take a closer look at the "Bride of Christ" doctrine as well.

Here are the reasons why:

Revelation 21:9-10

9. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

1. While there is a "lamb's wife, the bride of Christ", it is not the church—Revelation 21:9-10 clearly states that the "the bride, the Lamb's wife" is the Holy Jerusalem.

Revelation 19:7

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

2. Revelation 19:7 says, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." Again, this lamb's wife, the bride of Christ cannot be refering to the church! If the church is "the bride of Christ," then the Christian has to do something to get "herself ready." This requires "works" to be done by the Christian to get ready. The Word says that we are already made righteous and are already sanctified. So then, the church, in God's eyes, is already ready. The bride of Christ has to be something else!

3. If the Church were "the bride, the Lamb's wife," then the angel in Revelation 21:9-10 would have shown "the Church," not the Holy Jerusalem.

4. Jesus did not teach that his body is also his bride. Paul didn't teach it either.

5. Christians are repeatedly called "sons of God," "the body of Christ," and "the church" throughout the New Testament but are never called "the bride of Christ."

Currently, the main teaching regarding the "Bride of Christ" is that she is the church and must make herself ready. This teaching is inconsistent with the entire Pauline Revelation of the Gospel of Grace.

Because of the free gift of grace, we are already righteous and without spot nor blemish in the Lord's sight. We are already ready! Therefore, it stands to reason that the church can't be the one "getting herself ready." The "Bride of Christ" then must refer to something or someone else! The "bride" must refer, not to the church, but to the Holy Jerusalem, just as the Word of God says in Revelations 21:9-12.

The Unfortunate "Bride of Christ" Doctrine: Readying Ourselves Lies in God's Hands

The "Bride of Christ" teaching says the church has to do something to make "herself ready," to be perfect. If this is true, then there is absolutely no way Jesus will ever return and get us. We can't get "ready" ourselves or achieve perfection by our own doing. It'll never happen. We are not perfect, and we can never be perfect outside of his gift of righteousness. It is just not possible. It will never be possible!

Can't Ignore the Comparison of Worship and Marriage

Though I do not believe that the "Bride of Christ" refers to the church, I do think that the comparison of our relationship to God with the covenants, promises, or vows made in marriage is helpful. The Word does make those comparisons. I don't refute that. God has made a lot of promises to us similar to those we make to each other when we get married.

But as far as my personal relationship with God? I am a friend of God. He is my Dad, and I am His son, too. In the Scripture, it reads "...whereby we cry Abba (literally: "daddy"), Father." The closeness and intimate nature of our relationship with Him has the quality of the relationship between a father and a son, not a relationship between spouses. He is a Dad who has promised me an inheritance and the ability to come boldy to His throne of grace.

Neither Jesus Nor Paul Ever Preached That the Body of Christ is a Bride

They did not tell us the body of Christ is a bride of any kind. Perhaps Israel is the bride, but the body of Christ certainly isn't.

Jesus never told His disciples He would someday be their bride. Paul didn't say we are the bride. In fact, nowhere in scriptures does it ever say Christians are the bride of Christ. Not only that, it just seems strange.

The Term "Bride of Christ" Never Appears in the Bible

While a "Lambs' Wife" is mentioned in Revelations, the term "Bride of Christ" is never used in the Bible. I searched the Bible for the term "Bride of Christ". I couldn't find it. It surprised me when I did that search and came up with no results! And to think, after all these years of hearing how we are the bride of Christ and He will come get us once we have made ourselves ready.

What Does the Bible Say about the "Bride of Christ"?

What does the word say about the "Bride of Christ"? Nothing really. The term "Bride of Christ" is nowhere in the Bible. Aside from being first coined by the Roman Catholic Church, this term has been invented out of perceived inferences of certain passages that says God's relationship to us is "as a bride". These passages are all parables or similes. They are simply making a comparison of our relationship to Him. He loves us and has made covenant promises to us, similar to how a husband loves and upholds promises to his wife.

Again, the passage that comes closest to mentioning a bride from Revelation:

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel...

Revelation 21:9-12

This passage does not say the body of Christ is the the Lamb's wife. It does not say Israel is the Lamb's wife. It clearly states however that "that great city, the Holy Jerusalem" is the Lamb's wife. In verse 10, it also says that John the Revelator saw that great city descending down from heaven adorned as a bride. He doesn't even refer to it as the bride but that it is adorned as a bride.

Read This Parable from Matthew Again

Matthew 22:1-14 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

The bride is not the subject of this story—the guests are. The commonly accepted interpretation of this parable is that the guests represent the church—how can the guests be considered the bride?

Taking the leap from the guests representing "the bride of Christ" can't be done, but the proponents of the "bride of Christ" concept do it with this passage all of the time!

Read This Parable from Matthew Again, Too

Matt 25:1-13 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

It goes without saying that the ten virgins are not this groom's wife. They are only guests trying to get into the wedding.

Once again, taking the leap from the ten virgins being guests to them being the bride and representing "the Bride of Christ" can't be done. This story is about being ready to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. How is that done? By accepting Jesus as our Lord.

That story is as simple as that!

Another Argument Lies in Isaiah 62

Isaiah 62:4

Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Some have said the Lord would not marry a city, but here the Lord is married to the land. It is not a stretch that He could be married to a city if He wants, as has been indicated in Revelation 21:9-10. God can do what He wants, whether we understand it or not. After all, when did God ever do anything that really made sense to us?

In Jeremiah, God Is Already Married to Israel

Jeremiah 3:14

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

In the Old Testament, the church of Christ had not yet been established. Therefore, there was no church yet; furthermore, the prophet says God is already married to Israel! There is never any mention of a wedding for Jesus, simply one to the lamb's wife.

Why Do We Always Read Things into the Word?

So, how did some miss that passage and turn the church or even Israel into the "bride of Christ"? Israel makes more sense, but still, I'm not sure why people draw conclusions like these without clear evidence. The very human desire to understand everything has led to people reading into things that aren't really there in order to make some sort of sense out of it.

Preachers Aren't Always Right

Just because it was said by somebody in the pulpit doesn't make it true. The only thing you know must be true is the Word of God. So instead of putting unwavering faith in preachers, examine stories that seem clear to you.

Why the "Bride of Christ" Doctrine Is Important: Christianity Becomes Like All the Other Religions of the World

I used to think the "Bride of Christ" doctrine was an issue of secondary importance. However, with further consideration, I have concluded it is a fundamental concern. What the doctrine teaches causes to do works to become "without spot or wrinkle." Our Christianity becomes just like all the rest of the religions of the world. It becomes a religion of works and not one founded in God's grace. The "Bride of Christ" teaching takes away from us God's grace and gift of riaghteousness. We then become all about works. The Galations were all about works. What did Paul call those Galations? He called them fools.

Other Problems with the "Bride of Church" Doctrine

In addition to devaluing His gift of righteousness, the "Bride of Christ" doctrine also devalues our authority and position in Christ. Being in his body is much more powerful than simply being his bride.

For example, when it comes right down to it, my wife is limited in her authority over me because she is a separate person. It's not that way with the body of Christ. He gave us all of His authority as kings and priests in the earth. We are his body. We have His authority in the earth. That authority is the Word of God He gave us to hear, believe, speak, and live by.

Don't Believe Anything You Hear (Including What I Write) Unless It Can Be Clearly Backed up by the Word

I can clearly backup, with scripture, the fact that the Lamb's wife is the holy city of Jerusalem. But the ones who believe the church is the bride of Christ cannot back it up with obvious scripture.

Reconsidering Doctrine

Luke 20:35

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.

Its good to question everything we are being taught. I have always been puzzled by the "Bride of Christ" doctrine. After all, the Word says that we don't marry in heaven in Luke 20:35. I originally didn't think this verse had much to do with the "Bride of Christ" doctrine, yet, on second thought, maybe it does. There is no limiting language in this scripture—if we won't be given in marriage in heaven, then can it even be possible to be married to Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, in the hereafter? My questioning began with the Scripture.

Origins of the "Bride of Christ" Doctrine

The term "Bride of Christ" has it roots in the Roman Catholic Church. You probably know the clergy or priests of the Roman Catholic Church "marries" their church, taking an oath to celebacy. As a result, the term "Bride of Christ" was eventually coined in relation to this practice. Today, this concept and terminology has spilled over into our own fundamental Christian doctrines.

The Play "The Bride"

Several years ago (early '90s), there was a play called The Bride. This play told a story of how the church is the "Bride of Christ." This play was performed in many cities in the US. It was a nice little drama, but it is unscriptural. However, the play helped engrain the "Bride of Christ" doctrine in the public consciousness.

It just sounds nice. But just because the doctrine sounds good doesn't mean its God. Don't believe a thing just because it makes sense at first glance. If its not clearly in the Word, it is not so.

Inferences Don't Establish Truth

As we have established, the notion that we are the "Bride of Christ" is an inference. Building doctrines on inferences will mess us up and get us off the truth. This is the reason the Jones followers got off and drank the kool-aid. I don't know about you, but I'm not going with any doctrine that is inferred.

For example, it can be inferred that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for the early church only, and that God doesn't operate that way today. For centuries the church, by and large, had been robbed of the comfort, revelation, ability, and power found in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I'm glad we don't believe that's true anymore.

Also consider that "the church" once believed women shouldn't be in ministry or pastoring or in any leadership positions. That misconception came from inferences as well.

I take the Word literally for what it says unless it specifically says otherwise. For instance, Jesus told many stories that had meanings and were similes. Before He told His stories, He always led the listeners know He was about to tell a parable.

We don't accept those inferences about baptism or women in the ministry as truth anymore, and we shouldn't. Neither should we accept inferences in regards to the "Bride of Christ" teaching.

© 2008 cdacoffee


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  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    The concern I have is that the bride of Christ doctrine teaches us to get ourselves "ready" and to get ourselves where we are "without spot or blemish". The concern is the same one Paul had with the Galatians. They were going back to doing works to be righteous and ready and without blemish! Paul called them fools. Anybody who thinks he is not ready and is not already an overcomer is a fool. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb. That is the work Jesus did FOR us. We are already made righteous by the work Jesus did for us in administering grace to us and giving His righeousness to us. That makes us without spot or blemish and ready to go no matter where we are in our level of Christian spiritual maturity. You see the whole of the Pauline revelation is that we are made righteous in Christ. There is NOT anything we can do on our own or else we can boast in our own works...

  • Jade 7 years ago

    <<The concern I have is that the bride of Christ doctrine teaches us to get ourselves "ready" and to get ourselves where we are "without spot or blemish".>>

    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    It seems like Jesus is really expecting us to obey His commandments in perfect manner. Although many times we fail (I KNOW I do all the time), I think we should strive for perfection. There is a difference in doing good works and trusting in your own self-righteousness for salvation.

    The Bride of Christ is written about many times:

    Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    2 Corinthians 11:1-3 (Paul speaking to the church)Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  • Debra 7 years ago

    I just wanted to say .. THANK YOU CDA!! My spirit is right now rejoicing with the truth! Hallelujah! I was reading the Word one day when God pointed out to me the passage talking about the New Jerusalem being the bride. I was so blown away at first (since I had always assumed that the church was the bride). But, it all began to eventually make sense.. New Jerusalem and the bridegroom and such. Jesus cannot marry His own body and the Word tells us umpteen times that we are the body of Christ. I think most of the passages written on marriage are conveying a message on "committing". Committing ourselves to God and His Word and not the things of this world. Thanks again .. gosh, it is tough to find others that accept what you have explained here (which is supported by the Word of God). God bless!

  • Kim 7 years ago

    The church is not the bride. You have this right. We are already ONE with Jesus NOW. If people believe they are the bride, then using His name now and being intimate with Him NOW, is spiritual fornication. We give away our birthright as Esau did, when we declare ourselves as bride. We are the BODY and the BODY ONLY. Jesus is coming back to get his BODY and take us to the bride, New Jerusalem, where we will become a part of the city. The scriptures that teach about this are amazing.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Thanks for your comment...

    Responding to...

    1.Matt 5:48. He is talking about being perfest in the sense of allowing the Love of God to flow to everyone, not about good behaviour. Please read your bible in context.

    2.Eph 5:25. Here Paul is making a comparison and not saying the church "IS" but rather "AS". He is refering to the love we are to have and the covenant relationship that we have as a gift God gave us through the sacrifice of Jesus, the second Adam.

    As for working to be perfect, forget about it. Good works will come out of who you are if you have been born again. You can't manufacture perfection. Read about the 9 fruits of the Spirit. Those come out of a born again spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us and changing us by His word.

    We can choose to do right or wrong. We are enabled to do right by His power not our own. But is not in the doing right or behaving perfectly that makes us perfect. Our hearts still have crap in them from sin. We have to have the gift of righteousness imparted to us by the Spirit through Christ. So, if that is the case then we are already ready for Jesus to return etc., etc...

    Remember, we are already righteous. Our current condition has nothing to do with it. It is a gift.See Eph 2.

    And as for 2 Cor 11:1 the word husband was miss translated. It means a "man" not a "husband" as we know it today. Besides, a husband is a man who takes care of something. They refered to vineyard keepers as husbandmen in those days. Furthermore, Paul did not even mention that the church is the bride or use that word in the passage you quote. That has to be read in to it. If the word doesn't directly say it then it cannont be infered unless the writer tells us that what we are about to read a parable or such.

    Addtionally, Paul is wanting to make sure these people understood the message of grace in the gospel so that he will have accomplished the purpose that God had given Him to do in the Corithians.

    He wanted to make sure they became mature in the things of God and grew up in the word of God. Even you, by your own admission quoted the scripture reference that tells us it is the Word that changes us. Until those changes take hold we won't begin to see the work that God has begun in our hearts. That takes time. Thank God for his grace and gift of righteousness. It all has to be done by God and His word beginning from the inside out. "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God". Faith is the only thing that pleases God and even faith itself comes from His word.

  • Debra 7 years ago

    You know, I have always wondered what are the dangers (besides the ones already listed here) in believing the Bride of Christ doctrine.

    CDA said .. Being in his body is much more powerful than the position and authority we might have as a bride...

    On another blog site that I joined, there is a blog that has caused a great deal of controversy. It is basically about how the churches of today are effeminate in nature. This results in Christians being more in touch with their feelings than with the Word of God. It seems this "Bride of Christ" doctrine may be the spirit behind the church's feminism. And this would most definitely result in a loss of both power and persuasion.

  • Cdacoffee 7 years ago

    Great point Debra.

    Remember that we are not to be moved by our feelings but are to respond to what the word of God says.

    I might feel like I am not saved on one day and then feel like I am saved on another. My feelings are meaningless here. I am saved because the word of God says I am and not because my feelings say so.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Do you believe in the Trinity? I can't find that term in the Bible either,... do all your search engines and you want find it!!! But the theology is difinently there and one of foundational truth. This is the same truth as the bride of Christ, it is there but it takes discernment to understand it! In the last chapter of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, He tells John it is the "Spirit and the bride who say Come", note it's not the Church. When Paul writes of the relationship of Husband and wife he quotes Genesis 2:24 and says that this mystery of man becoming one flesh in marriage really pertains to God and Man. This is why Paul said in Corintians that we should not join ourselves with a harlot because the two become one flesh but rather we should join ourselves with the Lord. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17. Yes, the bride makes herself ready, Rev.19:7, she is purified by the flame of the love of God, the church needs refining by the fire of persecution. Rev 3:15-20 more at

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    You're being ridiculous...

    Why do you people want to try to say the church is the bride of Christ when the Bible comes right out and says in Revelation that the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem?

    True, you are right in saying the word never says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are a "trinity" but such is not the case about who the Lamb's wife is. I'll say it again... the Bible in Revelation comes right out and says that the "Lamb's Wife" is Holy Jerusalem". So from that we know that the church is not the "bride of Christ"! The church is the body of Christ not the bride dude...

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that there is no direct mention of a trinity but there is direct of a Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Whether they are one or not makes no difference in our authority in our walk with God whereas the bride of Christ doctrine does limit our faith by requiring us to do something to be "ready". The whole of the Pauline revelation is that there is nothing we can do to get ready outside of God's grace. Our salvation is by grace alone and being perfecct and righteous is a gift.

    As for a "refining fire". Not so. We are purged by the word of God, not persecutions. Persecutions come no matter what since there is a devil in the world. We are not refined by that. If that were so we would have been refined by now... There have been some 2,000 years of persecution. But rather we are to use the word of God to purge our hearts during times of persecution but at all times as well. Yes, there are trials. We are to use our faith (the word of God to overcome the trials(James 1). If we do that and don't give up we will be entire and won't want anything. We will be satisfied. The end result is what we are to look at. The end result is that God will bless us and protect us. It is His promise to us. That is why we can count it all joy.

    God is greater than any persecution. He, through His word that we speak in the name of Jesus, will overcome the evil and give us victory over every attack of the enemy.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    To understand the Christ and His bride one must look at the what God has foreshadowed in the Old Testament. Without argument we know that the 7 feasts of the Lord foreshadowed the life of Christ to a tee. He literally fulfilled the feasts on their celebrated days. At least the first 4, the last 3 will be literally fulfilled in His 2nd coming. You said above, "We have to think this through... If the church is Christ's body, then we are part of Christ. That makes us the husband to the bride and not the bride. That is not possible. If Jesus is the head and the church is his body how can Jesus marry his own body? Thats crazy! Coming to think about it in these terms makes the "Bride of Christ" doctrine really stupid. Jesus isn't going to marry his own body. He will marry his wife. The only thing he can marry will be the "Lamb's Wife". And that is the Holy Jerusalem" Since Christ is the last Adam 1 Cor. 15:45, we only need to look at the first Adam to see the Bride. Out of the Body of Adam came forth a Bride. Does that sound crazy? But even Adam acknowledge that out of himself came forth a Bride saying, "This is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, she will be called woman because she was taken out of Man." Gen. 2:23. Yes, the bride will be taken out of the body of Christ just as it happened with the first Adam. Adam willingly was put to sleep a shadow of Christ on the Cross, so that he could obtain a bride. Blood was shed and spilled when God took from Adam's side a part of his body to bring forth a bride for Adam. One of the words Jesus spoke on the cross is Aramic for bride. Saying it is finished, "Kalah" a play on words to mean complete, finished, and bride. Therefore when God brought the Women to Adam He said, "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and the shall become one, i.e. complete!!!! Gen 2:24 the Scriptures are full of this knowledge, I pray you and the others come to the awesome experience of knowing the desire God has for you beyond servanthood, You have be called to be His Wife! I know no other honor than that.

  • cdacoffee 7 years ago

    The church IS the body of Christ and not the bride. So, you are right... Christ can't marry His own body. That is crazy and another reason that the bride of Christ doctrine is error.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    The bride comes out of the Church. Just like the bride came out of Adam. Not all of Adam was the bride. Note that God didn't create Eve from the earth as He did Adam. But took a rib out of the body of Adam, not his whole body. The whole Church is not the bride, only those who answer the call. Jesus made this evident in His discourse on the mount of Olivet, in regards to His disciples question about the end, Matt. 24. In Matt 25:1-10 he compares the end and the kingdom to those who were ready for the wedding, 5 were foolish and 5 were ready. Those foolish missed the call to be the bride. It has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with "being holy even as He is Holy". In other words they gave up adultry with the world which many in the church have not done. They can be seen in the Church at Thyatria see Rev 2:18-23. Others are like the Church at Laodicea thinking themselves rich and wealthy in God but He says of them you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. They are Lukewarm and are spit out of His mouth. Rev. 3:14-20. The bride have the attitude as David, they pant after God even as the deer pants after the water. They desire one Thing, to dwell in the presence of God and gaze at His beauty.Ps63

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Are you saying I have to become holy in order to make myself ready?

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    This is the exhortation of Holiness, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the FORMER lusts which were yours in your ignorance but like the HOLY ONE who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your BEHAVIOR" 1 Peter 1:14-15 There is a doctrine of godliness. 1 Timothy6:3 If not then Christ had no right to rebuke 5 out of the 7 Churches in Rev.2 & 3

  • cdacoffee 7 years ago

    True, we are to lead godly lives. BUT my rghteousness is as filthy rags. So Jesus gave us His righteousness as a gift. Therefore we are already ready and perfect in the sight of God. We all still have the old nature at war in our flesh. Paul even said that. He said that there was a war in our members (the caral man). He said that he didn't do the things fhe should do and the things he didn't want do he should do. He was discussing trying to "get the body under" the rule of the born again spirit. He also went on to say that "what then sin and put Christ to the cross again? God forbid but if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father and He is quick to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousnes. I am not advocating taking advantage of salvation but we have His righteousness no matter what. In God's eyes we are perfect. We are already ready for Him. If we weren't we wouldn't be able to go to heaven now when we die. We are in the dispensation of UNMERITED favor and grace.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    When we try to be holy and perfect through "behavior modification" we begin do the same thing the Galations were doing... Paul called them fools. Our behavior will come out of who we are on the inside anyway. If we get the word of God inside of us then His character will eventually come out of us and make us more and more Christ like. That is how we are purged. By the word.

    All the while though, we are already MADE the righteousness of God in Christ.

    Religions all over the world teach their followers to be good and do religious rituals but being good and doing rituals won't get you into heaven. Only our being MADE righteous through the work Jesus did on the cross can do it.

    Even no matter how far down the road of Christian maturaty one is, there is still the seed of sin waring in us. It will always be there. We have to have the gift of righteousness operating in us to be ready. The church will never be ready by making herself ready. Can't be done. But with the gift of righteousness we have already been MADE ready by Him and not by ourselves.

  • Ed 7 years ago

    Friend, you are right in the concept that we are made holy by the sacrifice of Christ alone, not our own efforts that none may boast. However, the Bible clearly calls the church the BRIDEGROOM, the betrothed, the soon to be bride of Christ. We are made perfect through His blood and we have been presented to Him as pure. Jesus promised the church He would prepare a place, then return for His Betrothed. Until then, the church is to wait in anticipation of the Groom. “I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with Me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."”.When Jesus said “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.” He was referring to the marriage supper, the permanent joining of the church to Christ. So, true the church is not the Bride, it is the betrothed and we are to be faithful to His promise. He will return for us and we say come quickly Lord Jesus.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Your confusion with salvation and making oneself ready is key to seeing the difference in the bride and the church. Israel after applying the blood on the door post and being saved from the death angel escaped God's judgement. They found themselves delivered by the mighty hand of God and not by their own power or merit, simple grace. But Levi seperated himself from the gross immorality in which his brothers engaged. As a result God brought them closer to Himself. Why were they chosen? Because of what they had done!Ex.32:26-28. Answer this in the parable of the 10 virgins who all went out to meet the bridegroom why were 5 left out of the wedding. If it is by grace alone? The world is not looking for the bridegroom nor or they in any since a virgin. These who went out were looking for Jesus. They waited, yet 5 were not ready! This is fact and Jesus preached it. Revelation makes it clear the bride made herself ready!!!! I didn't write this Jesus did, it is the Revelation of Jesus which God gave Him to convey to His servant. Reve 1:1

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    The point you raise is moot. Revelation is talking about the holy Jerusalem making herself ready not the body of Christ. Right now holy Jerusalem is in heaven and will eventually come down.

    Anyway, if I have to address the the passage about the ten virgins I will. It is a parable. It does not say we are the "bride of Christ".

    Secondly, the story is simply a simile about getting saved. Getting saved is what gets us ready. It is His FREE gift of grace that makes us ready. HE loved me first, HE drew me in, and HIS ressurection power recreated me... And it is HIS grace that Has made me ready. It means we better be SAVED when we die and we better be saved when He returns.

    There will always be sin waring in my members. If there is even one tiny speck of sin in me, that is enough for God to keep me out. There will be no point in time when everyone in the chruch will have made herself ready. That is the reason He gave us His grace. He can only accept us through the blood sacrifice of Jesus to accept us in to Himself. So, apart from His grace I will find myself inadequate and NEVER ready. There is nothing I can do to "make myself ready".

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    In Rev It says, the bride made herself ready and it was given to her to wear fine linen which is the righteous acts of the saints, Rev 19:7-8. Then in Rev. 19:14 the armies in heaven who where dressed in fine linen came riding on white horses with Christ back to earth. Are you saying, those who are dressed in fine linen are not the bride and that the army riding on white horses is really the city "The New Jerusalem" even though they are defined by the white linen they wear? Now that is a confusing simile. Can you help eplain how a city rides on horses because I understand it to mean the bride in "fine linen" who is the army of God came back with Him on horses to wage war with Satan.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    It is in Rev 19:8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    It is not the saints themselves that is the fine linen. It is the righteousness of the saints. Furthermore that righteousness was given to them by God. That righteousness comes from God and not my own getting myself ready...

    It also says the "armies which were in heaven" and not the lamb's wife or church that rides on horses...

    Rev 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

    It doesn't say the holy Jerusalem is riding on horses.

    I think armies can ride on horses don't you?

    But don't stop there... Keep reading through the end of the book dude.

    Rev 21:9-10 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,..."

    How much clearer does it have to be for you to see the church is NOT the bride?

  • Debradoo 7 years ago

    Back again .. hehe. This is an interesting topic for me and I come here often to see what else might be posted. Now, this is just an opinion but it makes sense to me.

    The Bible always exalts Jesus Christ. He is first in everything. Agreed? If the church were truly the 'bride of Christ', wouldn't this be exalting the church? Or going against the order that God has set in place? ... God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Man, Woman, and so forth.

    Instead of giving us an image of the church being the bride, wouldn't the Word of God give us an image of Jesus Christ being the husband? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to Jesus as the husband as opposed to referring to the church as the bride?

    Just a thought ..

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Great point Debradoo.

    We are the body of Christ and so I suppose the church would be the husband to the lamb's wife.

    What's even better is that satan is under Jesus' feet. That is how we have all the authority in Jesus name even authority over the devil.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    In Hosea 2:16 God Himself says this, "In that day," declares the LORD, "you will call me 'my husband';

    you will no longer call me 'my master.NIV This day is still coming to pass especially now. However many still call Jesus Master and don't know Him as Husband. But he declares the day will come when some of His people will understand who He really is. He goes on to make a promise in Hosea 2:18-19, "I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion.

    I will betroth you in faithfulness, and then you will know the LORD". The word betroth means to promise to marry, Strongs #781, look it up. God has never broken a promise nor does He lie, Titus 1:2 "which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago.."NASU The second witness of God keeping His promise is preached by Paul saying, 2 Cor 11:2,"I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.NIV The word promised is the Greek word for espoused,i.e. in marriage. Strongs # 718. Paul warns those who do not see this truth of Christ being their husband. 2 Cor 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ" NIV Futhermore, when Jesus was asked this question, "Luke 5:33

    "John's disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking." NIV Guess what kind of answer He gives them, "Luke 5:34-35 Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? 35 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast." NIV Why answer them in such a way. Because He was here on earth preparing and propessing to His bride, otherwise, He would of gave them their religious answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is at least "MY HUSBAND"

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Yeah, good try...

    Hosea is speaking to Israel and not the body of Christ. The body of Christ wasn't even yet to come for another 734 years. And He was speaking out of has own experience of having to marry a harlot. Hosea prophecied that Israel's backslidings caused God to see his people as harlots but God would bring them back and be their God to them at some point.

    Jesus in Luke 5 is speaking to the disipcles who were Israelites also.

    And at the time they were still under the old covenant. Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice for "once and for all" yet.

    It may be that Israel is a bride as some believe, but the chruch is not a bride. Perhaps there might be a correlation here to the "holy Jerusalem", ya think?

    As for Paul in 2 Cor? Paul is writing to his own converts in Corinth. ...and this verse is no proof that a virgin is a symbol of the church. Once again, another single verse that is taken out of context from which several false doctrines have come including the church is the bride of Christ doctrine:

    2 Cor 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ."

    Paul only says that he is jealous over his own converts and that he would present them to Christ just like a chaste virgin is presented to her husband. Paul is only making a comparison that the very spiritualy immature Corinthians can understand.

    Paul has no authority to espouse any of us to Christ except for maybe his own converts. He is jealous over his own converts as you would be for yours.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Dear Yes2truth,

    Basically the answer to your questions are found in Rev. 19:

    * Who is being arrayed in white linen if it's not the Church?

    His wife is The New Jerusalem

    *Who is the 'her'?

    A ship captain can refer to his ship or a storm as “she”, so The new Jerusalem is refered to as “her”. That is obvious if you read the verse.

    * Are you saying the saints do not constitute the Church?

    No, saints do constitute the church but the verse says that the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Saints.

    *Are you saying that brides do not wear white linen? No, I never said that. Read everything above and you'll see that I haven't . But the linen on The New Jerusalem will be the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the saints.

    * Do you understand the parable of the Ten Virgins or Ten Bridesmaids?

    Yes. Jesus even said it is a simile (parable). It is about being ready for eternity. It is only a simile meaning that we have to be saved to live eternally with the Lord in heaven. It means nothing more than that.

    * Elsewhere The Lord uses the analogy of the wedding feast, are you saying He is only celebrating the wedding with Jerusalem?

    I suppose He celebrates alot over His children even now, but there will be a wedding feast in heaven of which all of the hosts of heaven including the armies of heaven, the saints, and Israel will be in attendance.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Paul never taught the church is the bride.

    Paul I 2 Cor 11 is in now way teaching on any bride. He is telling the Corithians how much he loves them and all the things he gave up for them and went through for them in order to teach them the gospel of grace.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    It is inconsistent for scripture to make distinction after distinction between Israel and the Church and then say that they are one in the same when they are not. For instance, saying Hosea is talking to "the body of Christ" when, in fact, he is addressing the nation of Israel is part of the inconsistancy.

    It is amazing to me that the Bible comes right out and says the "holy Jerusalem" is the lamb's wife.(Rev 21:9-10) But people still don't want to believe it.

    That is one of the reasons 900 "Christian" people drank the Kool-aid.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    By the way show me at least one verse in the Old Testament that says God would raise up a Church! You can't does that mean your religion is FALSE? But I continue to show you the Scriptures that speak of the Bride and you can't see it! Dancing around the truth because of what? I know but that job is left to His Spirit. You love the word simile. So when Paul says we are God's Building 1 Cor 3,then we understand that we are not a building but like it. When compared to stones and a spiritual house we see that we have the functions of a house and its stones. When Revelations says I'll show the bride it doesn't directly say the city is the bride it say he took me to a mountain and showed me the New Jerusalem coming out of the Sky. We know that a bride is truly a city but is like a city a true definition of a simile but this is the only place you dare not use it. But really know need because he did not say it was the bride. In Rev. 21:2 he compares the City as a bride, that is a simile to the 2nd degree. Plus this happens a 1,000 years later after the marriage supper of the lamb in Rev. 19. Funny the marriage takes place before the bride arrives 1,000 years later according to your doctrine!!!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    *** The habit of reading things into the word that are

    clearly not there is the primary reason why 900 "Christian"

    people in Jonestown drank the Kool-aid!


    I have had to delete some comments because a certain author has decided to resort to accusations.

    If he as something of substance to share I will be more than glad post it.

  • creemos profile image

    creemos 7 years ago from United States of America

    Jesus Christ, by His blood, has cleansed all true believers from their wicked sin.

    But, you missed something....

    James 1:27

    God commands that we NOT become "spotted" by the things OF THIS WORLD. Why? Because we believers must stand before the "Judgment Seat of Christ." On that day, some will suffer loss because they did not heed Jesus' warning to His bride. Some will be rewarded for their faithfulness in keeping their robes from become "spotted by the things of this world."

    Finally, Jesus Himself declares that He is coming for His bride. You make the connection.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    First of all. I love your profile photo.

    I agree. We shouldn't continue to be "of the world" once we get saved. But still we can't be perfect.

    Nevertheless, James is talking about the words we speak. Do we speak His word over our lives or do we speak words of doubt and unbelief? Hebrews tells us that if we even doubt the Lord we are sinning. I don't know any of us who don't doubt from time to time.

    True, our works will be judged whether they are done out of the flesh or out of the Spirit of God in us. But it is not the works that makes us perfect.

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8,9.

    And in Galations 2:16 and on.

    Also notice that If I start to do things in order to make myself ready (works) I put myself back under the curse of the law. Gal 3:7-11.

    We are perfect because we have been given the gift of righteousness. Even more, we have been MADE righteous. So, as I have said before, we may not really be perfect but God sees us as perfect since He has already MADE us righteous. He can come get us at any time.

    The bone I have to pick with the Bride of Christ being the church doctrine is that it insists that we have make ourselves "without spot or blemish" before He comes whether we are the body of Christ or not.

  • A M Werner profile image

    Allen Werner 7 years ago from West Allis

    There is always much debate about grace and works in regards to salvation. I don't believe it is as difficult as people want to make it. Everyone needs to take all the denominational agendas out and see it for what it is.

    Without grace there is no salvation. By His Grace, Yahweh sent His Son Yahshua to die, and rise again for us. No salvation is possible without it.


    In saying that, we have to realize that once we understand and accept this kindness, this grace, we are a new person - a changed person who dies daily to the old self.

    Our works are the good fruits of that grace.

    If we don't have good fruits, good works, after receiving the grace - we are the seeds that fell on the stony path, or got tangled in the weeds.

    Unlike the criminal on the pole beside Him when He died, we are still alive and well, and capable of doing good works associated with the grace. If we do not the good works, it only shows that we did not truly comprehend the grace, or we simply took advantage of it.

    Good works are the proof we really believe the promise of salvation by grace. Without good works, we prove we did not believe the promise of salvation by grace - we merely wanted to be saved inorder to be our old selves.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    I love the way you put it!

    Good works are the manifestation of a heart that has "received the abundance of grace and has been changed by the same power that raised Christ from the dead.

    It is the gospel of grace that we are to preach.

    Thank you for such awesome insight into the Pauline revelation.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Show me one place in the OT that says the body of Christ is the church as you asked me to show you one place in the OT that says God would raise up a Church!

    Rev 21:9,10 - If I told someone that I was going to show them a car I would take them out to the street and point to a car. I wouldn't show them something else. The angel told John he would show him the lamb's wife because that is what he told John he would show him. So, he showed him what he was telling him he'd show him: the holy city.

    Rev 21:2 - Here John writes to us humans in this way so that we can understand what the holy city looks like. John is telling us that the holy city looks like it is ADORNED as a bride. Also, he didn't say the body of Christ is adorned as a bride.

    Anyway, your points don't prove that the body of Christ is the bride of Christ.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    If you would have asked me to see my bride, I would have taken you to the Church made of fine marble and cultured stone. We would go through the double doors carved with cherubim and inlaid with gold. We would walk through the foyer inlaid with cedar made from East Texas pine the work of a skilled craftsman. The doors leading to the sanctuary are twenty feet high and ten feet across and in them are carved every creature created by God. There also was engraved the twelve tribes of Israel and on them the names of the twelve apostles! Beyond the doors stood the alter in what appeared to be the throne of God for that is what we wanted, so as to speak our vows before His throne. This church was adorned as a bride prepared for her husband even his wife. And in it was all those who had been invited to witness my wedding for it was I who married the bride.

    If you don't count yourself worthy to be the bride at least by His grace you can attend the wedding. Yes you there, by the way I'll be dressed in white with a veil over my face.

  • whispers of faith profile image

    whispers of faith 7 years ago

    hi this is the second time i came across this hub and the first time i didn't comment because i wanted to find the answer before i commented. and to answer your question you are right we will never be perfect enough for god, but we are made in Gods image thats not the point the point is that the church being the bride of christ is more like a metophor meaning that since God is the churchs husband than he has to take care of us, provide for us, love us, like a husband provides for his wife and the church being Gods wife we have to live for him, support him in away, love him also, proverbs 31 explains how a wife should be to her husband so that is how the church should be to God. God doesn't want us to be perofect he just wants us to love him like you would love your worldly husbands

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Here is your one verse: “For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem's sake I will not remain quiet, till her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch. 2 The nations will see your righteousness, and all kings your glory; you will be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will bestow. 3 You will be a crown of splendor in the LORD's hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God. 4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah (My desire), and your land Beulah (Married); for the LORD will take delight in you, and your land will be married. 5 As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you. Isa 62:1-5 NIV

    You may say this pertains to Israel on the contrary this is what God has promised in Jeremiah 31:31-33, "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people”.

    That covenant was a marriage contract even as God declared, “I was a husband to them”, Again Isaiah says of God, “As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you, as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you”

    This new covenant of marriage is what the New Testament saints declared in Hebrews 8:7-9, “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel

    and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord”.

    This is the new covenant Jesus made, “In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” Luke 22:20 NIV. This was the fulfillment of Hosea 2:16, “In that day," declares the LORD,

    "you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.'

    How much more evidence do you need?

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Then the new covenant doesn't pertain to you because it says I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Your lost in your sins according to your interpretations because without question it says this to Israel!!!!!!!!!1

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    And if you are not a jew then you too are lost in your sins by what you say.

    Except for one thing...

    The word says Jesus became a sacrifice for once and for ALL. And whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Whether one believes the body of Christ is the bride or not won't negate that. But doing works in order to become perfect enough for Jesus to consider us ready, according the the "bride of Christ" doctrine, will put us back under the curse of the law.

    It is true that God will rejoice over Israel as a bride but nowhere does it say the body of Christ will be married to Jesus.

    Go back up to my text and you will see that I do make comparisons about our relationship to God and the promises he has made to us are LIKE the ones we make to our spouse.

    Still, Rev. 21:9 comes right out and shows us who the lamb's wife is.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    BTW Mickey,

    I do appreciate your posts and point of view.

  • yabeya 7 years ago

    I agree that we will never make ourselves without spot or blemish. I also agree that believers in Messiah are to be his body on earth.

    We can't make ourselves into a worthy bride, but Messiah can. His sacrifice has made his servants (the church) without spot or blemish.

    When he returns to earth, it will be in his actual body, his post-resurrection one. So I don't see a conflict with the church being his body for now.

    The Bible does give us the concept of Messiah viewing the church as his bride. Paul says that husbands must love their wives as Christ loves the church.

    Also, in Hebrew tradition, there is a ritual a man must follow when he wants to marry a woman. It includes pouring a cup of wine, and letting the woman choose to drink it or not. If she chooses, the man says "I go to prepare a place for you", and he builds a new room on his house to honor the bride. Jesus told the disciples "I go to prepare a place for you". The beautiful thing about this is that some fiances took a long time building the new room, especially if the room was extra luxurious. But the bride never really knew how long it would take for the fiance's return.

    So yes, I wouldn't build a prescriptive theology around it, but the concept of Messiah claiming his church as his bride is there.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I have recently begun studying and questioning the reference scriptures above and agree there are comparisons to marriage and Christ being the husband of the church in the Pauline scriptures and I don't claim to be a bible scholar but, I also take the bible literally and I think we as believers are the guests, invited through grace to the wedding. I believe we are the body of Christ (a masculine term). As you said, in Revelation 21:9,10 the Lamb's wife is the great city, the holy Jerusalem and in verse 27 only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life can enter it (the city or the Lamb's bride). Revelation 22:17 says, the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) and the bride (the holy city) say, "Come!" And let him (who?) who hears say, "Come!"

    Come where? Into the bride, that great city, The holy Jerusalem! I just can't see Christ marrying his own body either. Colossians 1:18 says, And He is the head of the body, the CHURCH.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    Sorry for the misquote in Rev. 21:9 I meant the Lamb's bride.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho



  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    You might have heard a message that goes like this; It says we are in the body of Christ and that we all have a part. Some are the hands, some the arms, etc. but all of us have a part in it.

    Then one day I heard about one lady who was concerned about "just being a little toe" in the body of Christ. She was told that that didn't matter because the devil was still under her feet...

    I liked that story. Being in His body gives us all authority over the devil.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    Dear cda,

    Thank you for the response to my posting.

    I know a lot of believers that get blown away when I show them that Revelation 21:9 says the bride of the Lamb is the new Jerusalem. Then go back to the other passages, which are metaphors, to try to discount what the bible actually says. I'm like you. I can't find a single passage that SAYS the church or the body is the bride of Christ. I noticed some on this hub that oppose your views but, they have yet to come up with a scripture that supports their belief of the church or body being the bride without it being a metaphor or simile as you said. Why can't they take the Word literally for what it says? They even start doing word studies on the Hebrew and Greek translations to try to prove they are right and the bible is wrong!

    What would happen if they read Galations 4:26, But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER of us all? I'm looking forward to the response on this!

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Jesus said this, in "John 6:54-60 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

    These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, " This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" NASU

    He went on to say, "John 6:63-64 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life".

    According to you and your followers you also need to take this verse literal! It takes God's Spirit to discern His word. You will give me an explaination spiritually about this verse using other scriptures to prove what Jesus said wasn't literal. He even allowed His followers to walk away without explanation. You think you have wisdom but your hermeneutics is inconsistance. There is a warning to all those who teach that we will be judged with a greater judgement than those who don't, are you willing to face that judgement if incorrect? James 3:1

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    First of all. They are not my followers. They are Jesus' followers. I want no followers.

    Secondly, the verses prior to this scripture (v 58) makes no sense until you read this verse: "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever." JESUS COMES RIGHT OUT AND TELLS YOU WHAT HE MEANS IN THAT VERSE!

    Obviously he is talking about the bread which came down out of heaven. Go to John chapter 1. It tells us Jesus is the bread of life. John also says that Jesus is "the word became flesh and dwelt among us". HERE AGAIN THE BIBLE COMES RIGHT OUT AND TELLS US THAT JESUS IS THE WORD.


    The passages that contain this information are clear and need no intrepretation. In fact no scripture needs "reading into". If it does, the bible will tell you. Such as when Jesus said he was going to tell a parable. If not it has to be taken literally.

    Thirdly, people weren't "born again" at that time and the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent into the earth to begin His ministry. So then, unlike Christians today, Jesus' disciples were pretty much unable to understand the things of the Spirit.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Once again someone who wants to prove a point by taking a scripture out of context. The one you qoute is smack-dab in the middle of the thought being expressed from James 1 through at least all of James 3. But anyway, your quote of James 3:1 is misplaced as that scripture is refering to people who want to become teachers of the word but don't; 1. have faith that demonstrates the fruit of their faith and 2. bridle their own tongues.

    What I have written in this hub will help people receive God's grace for their life and get them out from under the law by trying to do works to become perfect. Additionally my position on who the lamb's wife is not heresy or a false doctrine that will lead people into hell. Rev. 21:9-10. So I won't get judged for teaching heresy.

    Hey, I can ask you the same question for what you teach about this topic as you have asked me, "Are you willing to face that judgement if incorrect? James 3:1"

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Thank you Yabeya,

    On the contrary... The concept of the church being the bride is not there...

    A you can see from the beginning of my article, I can say that I agree that there are comparisons made of Jesus to us in our relationship to Him that are similar to that of marrage. But the concept of the church being the bride of Christ is not there at all. It has been read into it.

    Our retlationship to Christ is described in that way so we understand the covenant He has made to us and the degree of comittment He has made to us to keep it, just as we are to keep our own comittments to our spouse.

    I personally wouldn't build a prescriptive theology around it but with the vast majority of Christian believing the "bride of Christ" is the church, it has become a prescriptive theology.

    There has never been a clear enough distinction taught to the body of Christ that WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE RIGHTEOUS BY JESUS rather than for us to get ourselves ready through works.

    There may be alot of Christians working at being perfect as a result of that teaching... "Like a moth to the flame", man is compelled to revert to "works" to be accepted by God.

    FAITH is what pleases God. So, if I were the devil I'd try to do everything I could to keep Christians from living by grace through faith. This doctrine seems to do a pretty good job of it too!

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    I'm 100% confident that the Bride is literal. Just as I am 100% confindent that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is true. I've experienced them both. The Bride has nothing to do with salvation. All I can say is I pray that God led you to the truth and if your not 100% sure, you will find yourself preaching against your creator and the apple of His eye, the Bride. I'm not willing to talk about any mans wife especially God's. As I said before, you are kicking against the goad.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I believe the Spirit led me to this hub because I was confused about the church being the bride. The bible says to test the spirits. That is what I have done. I don't feel as if the my carnal side has led me to this because, the flesh has enmity with things of the Spirit. This began as a bible study on end time prophesy at my church (building) and I had been aware of the passage in Rev.21:9,10 for over a decade. I knew something in my spirit wasn't comfortable with the "church/bride" teaching.

    As far as the bread of life goes, Jesus IS that bread, He is the Word, And the Word (bible) is my daily bread. That is where we get fed the truth and the truth is plain to see if you read it the way it is written and don't cloud it with tradition. Even the first recorded miracle Jesus performed at the wedding feast shows that He fulfilled the requirements of the law, ceremony and tradition by filling the "ceremonial" water pots with the best wine.

    I have no doubt that true believers are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb. Paul was quoted in 2 Cor. 11:2 saying, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ." There's that word AS again. And as you said before Paul didn't have the power to betroth anyone to Christ. In the PARABLE of the ten virgins, they were not the BRIDE. In the PARABLE of the marriage feast, the king's servants were sent to invite GUESTS to the wedding. I can't add or take away anything form the Word. I better add that Jesus is my Savior, my Bread of life and my Shepherd and He leads me to all truth.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I just wanted to add that the passage used in Hosea is reffering to Israel.

  • Jeff 7 years ago

    Seems Mickey can't take the fact that Rev 21:9-10 says the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem and not the church. Taken literally Mickey it means the church is not the birde of Christ but Jerusalem is.

    Go figure...

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Thanks Scott,

    I did mention that in an answer to another objection I had earlier.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I am being led by the Spirit and I can't see where the BIBLE actually says the church is the bride of Christ.

    Mickey, I think you are wallowing in your own self righteousness. Jesus filled the requirement of the law, ritual, ceremony and tradition at Calvary and showed that He came to do that at the wedding where He performed His first recorded miracle by filling the CEREMONIAL water pots with the BEST wine, showing He came as He said to fulfill the law. Look at Rev. 21:12-27. It is a reflection of Isaiah 54 especially verse 11 & 12. He is addressing Israel, in Hosea 2:16 He is addressing Israel and I believe Rev. 21 is addressing Israel. I also belive this was revelation of the Holy Ghost to me. You have to have an open mind and stop believing tradition. Christ Himself said,"Beware of the leaven of the pharisees."

    All the passages that have been used to support the church/bride THEORY are as cda has said, metaphors, comparisons and similes. 2 Timothy 4:3 says, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    I'm just saying what if you're wrong?

  • Scott 7 years ago


    I had to add that I'm sorry if I have offended you.

    I also wanted to add that someone on here (I think you) used the passage in 2 Corinthians 11:2 and I'm asking how do you explain away the PARABLE of the ten virgins, (Matthew 22)? These were guests of the bride, were they not? And in Rev. 1:6, He hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; and Rev. 21:24, And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (the bride or city); and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour INTO it. 26 and they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations INTO it.

    Love in Christ the Lord

    Love in Christ the Lord

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Scott, No you did not offend me. I just said keep studying. If you really want to talk about the bride contact me at and I will converse with you via email without all the interjections. And I will explain 2 Cor. 11:2 in detail. and the 10 virgins.

  • Scott  7 years ago


    Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts here.

    I hope I didn't step on anyones toes.

    It seems as though people are as stuck on tradition now as they were in Christ time. I'm glad we understand rituals are no longer required to please God our FATHER!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Could you post those scriptures you sent to me via email?

  • Scott 7 years ago

    Are you refering to Rev. 21:12,14 and 24,26?

    I think you can see a picture of that in Isaiah 54.

    If that's not what you mean feel free to quote me, please.

  • Scott 7 years ago


    I looked at your website and I won't be contacting you via e-mail as I believe you think I'm not spiritual enough to see things YOUR way. As I said before you can't show me where the bible actually says the church is the bride of Christ. I've always been told to check what you hear or read to what the bible says and's just not there.

    The "custom" of the Jewish wedding of Christ's day I'm aware of, but again, it's not in the bible.

    BTW all my quotes have been taken out of the KJV, I do have the NIV, ASV, NKJV, NLT and a Dake's, of which I don't totally agree with on some issues and an Amplified not mention a Strong's and Matthew Henry.

    I also am starting to lean more toward a post tribulation rapture(or the taking up) in case you are one of those that don't like the word rapture because it's not in the bible either along with the word trinity.

    My wife has been studying these things with me and she fails to see your view on the church/bride concept, too.

    Another PARABLE from Jesus is in Matt. 13:19-23.

    Is it possible that satan has decieved the church into believing something that is not true?

    I haven't written any books. I haven't preached to an audience. I do however eat my Daily Bread. I do believe I have the Spirit. If your reference to the baptism of the holy Spirit is with the evidence of speaking in tongues then that is not scriptural either. The bible plainly says in gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance; against such there is no law.

    Also look at Gal.4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER of us all.

    So if the great city, the holy Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb and she is the MOTHER of us all How can the church be the bride? Also if a man was to marry his child (that is the way I percieve the relationship between God and the saved), wouldn't that be incest?

    He calls me friend, He made us to become sons of God, He has adopted us through the blood of Messiah and the covenant with Abraham.

    God bless you and you Jeff and coffee man

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    I have read where there is actually more the one rapture mentioned in the Bible. Here is a list of some of the ones I have heard of. I don't know much about all the rapture stuff since I don't really care that much about it. This is just something I found interesting.

    1. Elijah

    2. Enoch

    3. Jesus

    4. Pre-trib

    5. Mid-trib

    6. Post-trib

    There is one more I heard of but I don't remember what it is.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    If you read all of the Gal 4: you'll notice that Paul says in v 4...

    "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

    Since Jesus was born of the virgin Mary it makes Jesus the son of God as conceived by the Holy Spirit and Jesus the son of Israel (Jerusalem) through the genes of Mary who is of the linage of David.

    Then we see Paul saying that we have the Spirit of His son in us and we are adopted sons. So then, keep reading Galations 4...

    Gal 4:5-7

    To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

    Later he makes the reference that Jerusalem is the mother of us all.

    This is how that makes sense. We are sons of God and sons of the linage of David through Jesus being born of the virgin Mary. Jerusalem then becomes the mother of us all.

    Through all of this Paul continues to preach the gospel of grace to the Galations. He says he is afraid of them because they observe days month, times and years.

    He hopes he hasn't wasted time teaching them about grace because the Galations have fallen back into living un the law.

    The "bride" doctrine does the same to the church. It causes them to live under the law and not grace. Followers of the doctrine are trying to get themselves ready. They try to do things to become perfect ("without spot or blemish") like going to church, tithing, reading the bible, etc...

    It is good to do those things but are they being done because of the traditions of what the leaders tell you to do or is it because it is something that the Holy Spirit in you heart has told you to do? If it is the later it is being led by the Spirit and then becomes FAITH WITH WORKS. Otherwise it is just another empty ritual and is simply a work. And if you do that, as Paul says, you are back under the law and the curse of the law that goes with it.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    I am in no way kicking against the goad as I can prove unquestionably that the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem (Rev. 21:9-10) but the bride of Christ teaching can only be read into scripture. There is no scripture that says the bride of Christ is the Church. But the word does say holy Jerusalem is. It is your position that is in error.

    Unbelievable to me that people can't face the fact that the church is not the bride.

    I suppose you will never change your mind on this since it could really cost you...

    You see, since it turns out that the church is not the bride, your ministry could be at risk.

    I just hope you haven't built you entire ministry on it.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Without being rude, it is obvious that you both are infants in Christ. My only prayer Lord is that you open their eyes not to be in agreement with me but that they not deny themselves the call to be your Bride. Scott it you had read by web page you would of known my belief on the rapture.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I think you mean the post millenial (rapture).

    You know the bible says faith without works is dead and in Hebrews 10:24 & 25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the DAY approaching.

    When a person gets saved the Holy Spirit leads him to do good and to be transformed as in Romans 12:1&2.

    There is no such thing as a Lone Ranger Christian.


    No I didn't read all of your web page, but I read enough to know what YOU believe. This is just a disscusion. you're entitled to your own oppinion. And I don't appreciate you passing judgement on me, cdacoffee or anyone else for that matter as you have no knowledge of anyone's spiritual condition other than your own.

    When Jesus raised Lazerus form the dead, He commanded those there to "loose him and let him go", that is what He came to do for man, set us FREE from tradition, ceremonial ritual and the law.

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Many have wondered about the brides identity from the Scriptures. Some have suggested her to be the city of God the New Jerusalem referenced in Revelations… “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he [the angel] carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God” (Rev 21:9-10 NIV).

    A city is not what God has redeemed nor purchased to be His bride. It was a people whom He redeemed that would chose to love and return to Him unlike a city. Examining Scriptures will help us to identity God’s bride. Isaiah calls the people of God, Zion. “I have put my words in your mouth and covered you with the shadow of my hand — I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people‘” (Isa 51:16 NIV). And again Isaiah says, “The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel” (Isa 60:14 NIV).

    Zion is the name given to the bride of Christ it is also the place where His bride will dwell. “Return, faithless people,” declares the LORD, “for I am your husband. I will choose you — one from a town and two from a clan — and bring you to Zion” (Jer 3:14 NIV). The bride of Christ is also described as living stones and a spiritual house. “As you come to him, the living Stone — rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones , are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:4-6 NIV). Paul writes to the church at Ephesus and said to them, “you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building (the bride), being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit” (Eph. 2:19-22). Therefore the Holy City in Revelation is the dwelling place of the bride of Christ not the bride herself. The city is the home of the bride and her bridegroom Jesus. Many think that the dwelling place of the bride or saved will dwell in heaven. Heaven is where the Bridegroom, Jesus, has prepared the chedar (consummation chamber), and earth is where she will live.

    In Revelations 19:7&8, the bride or rather wife of Christ has made herself ready unlike a city which cannot make her self ready. The city, the New Jerusalem, is made by God; it was not made ready by itself. The bride however chooses to prepare herself for her Husband, Christ Jesus, and clothes herself with fine linen. The fine linen is defined as the “righteous acts of the saints”. “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. And he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb’” (Rev 19:7-9 NASB).

    Upon His return, Christ descends back to earth with His bride to wage war with the devil. “And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war… And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses” (Rev 19:11&14 NASB). The army with Christ is His bride who has made herself ready and clothed herself in preparation for her wedding with “righteous acts”. Are you ready for your wedding day with the King of kings? If you have not really believed, you are being wed to Christ Jesus, you will not prepare yourself for a wedding? How then can you truly be ready? See Matthew 25: 1-13.

  • Debra 7 years ago

    quote .. The army with Christ is His bride who has made herself ready and clothed herself in preparation for her wedding with “righteous acts”. Are you ready for your wedding day with the King of kings? If you have not really believed, you are being wed to Christ Jesus, you will not prepare yourself for a wedding? How then can you truly be ready? .. end quote

    It seems, CDA that Mickey has proved the very point you have been trying to make with this blog, concerning the dangers of believing the bride of Christ doctrine. How unfortunate that so many Christians cannot believe that we have all the righteousness we will ever need IN HIM, already.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Thank you Debra,

    Those who prescribe to the "bride is the church" concept insist that they get themselves ready... BUT... Jesus himself said that HE went to prepare a PLACE for us.


    Jesus is getting everything in heaven ready as well as that city (THE LAMB'S WIFE) ready to come down even as we discuss this topic. The holy Jerusalem is being readied now. And as close as we are to Jesus' return it might already be ready...

    The righteousness of the saints as given to them by God will cloth the holy Jerusalem too.

    Notice how Mickey has twisted who is in the city and who the bride is in his previous post... The Word only supports the following...


    Holy Jerusalem, which is the Lamb's wife will be inhabited with Israel, the saints of the OT times and the body of Christ. If any "people" are the "bride" (see Hosea. Hosea is speaking to Israel and not the body of Christ) it would be Israel and not the body of Christ.

    We all will be inhabitants of that city and will attend the marriage supper of the Lamb. We will be in attendance but, SORRY, we, the body of Christ, are not the "bride of Christ".

    Thank God it won't be me who gets me ready. I couldn't do it on my own even if I tried with all my might to be without spot or blemish, at least not without His giving me His righteousness. If I could, I could glory in myself...

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Here is the whole in your bucket. You have the marriage supper 1,000 years before the bride shows up. The marriage supper takes place in Rev 19:7&19. Scripture tells us after the 1,000 year reign there is a new heaven and new earth for the old has been burned up, 2Peter 3:7, then the New Jerusalem is brought down out of heaven. Rev 20:4 Rev. 21:1-9. You can't have it both ways. Your doctrine has the bride showing up 1,000 years after the marriage supper. Research when the marriage supper takes place. And as a said before the bride has nothing to do with salvation, not everybody receive the same reward, that Scripture. Your doctring doesn't add up you can twist it all you want to fit your doctrine. The church is not in error you are.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Here is the hole in your bucket. Rev 21:9 plainly shows us who the lamb's wife is. It is holy Jerusalem.

    The time line is inconsequential in determining who the Lamb's wife is.

    Although you are right, the marriage supper takes place in Rev 19, it NEVER says who the "bride" is. It only tells us that the called are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. This is not a passage that supports your claim that the church is the "bride of Christ".

    Furthermore it tells us the "wife" gets herself ready. The "wife" is the holy Jerusalem as per Rev. 21:9-10.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    I love it!

    Here's a quote from you from an earlier post:

    "Some have suggested her to be the city of God the New Jerusalem referenced in Revelations..."

    Yeah,some angel "suggested" to John that the lamb's wife is the holy Jerusalem.

  • bayareagreatthing profile image

    bayareagreatthing 7 years ago from Bay Area California

    One of the main dangers I have personally seen is the teaching that Christ won't come back "until we make ourselves ready" (ref to Rev 19:7). This makes us "little gods". This is a misunderstanding of how we become righteous in the first place. If I may share this with you (too long to post). In essence we are righteous because God imparts his righteousness to us.

  • Rebecca 7 years ago

    The Bride is Spiritually Mature And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her.

    -Genesis 24:16

    In Genesis 24, we see Eliezer coming for Rebekah, a damsel and a virgin-just as Yeshua is going to come for a spiritually mature bride, not a baby Christian who has not reached spiritual adulthood and isn't old enough to marry.

    The Hebrew word for "damsel" is Na'arah, which means "a girl from infancy to adolescence." This is a prophetic picture of the Bride of Christ who has grown to spiritual maturity. She is old enough to marry.

    A spiritual child is a carnal Christian (saved, but babes in Christ). They are carnally minded, controlled by the flesh, and not able to learn and understand the deeper truths of God's Word. They live on simple truth, "as newborn babes."

    We see in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2:

    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.

    The Scriptures tell us in 1 Peter 3:18 that we are to grow in grace-like the parable of the seed, we are to mature in the understanding of God and kingdom principles. We are to leave the elementary things and grow into spiritual maturity. For Hebrews 6:1 says: "Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection."

    The Greek word for "perfection" is Teliotace,which means "completeness and full maturity." The root word Telios means "completeness, full grown, adult, and mature."

    Our goal as believers is not just salvation. We are to strive for perfection and grow in knowledge, having a deeper understanding of God's ways, entering into a deeper intimacy with Him. By growing from faith to faith as Romans 1:17 says, by being drawn from the breast, weaned from the milk-for it is precept upon precept, line upon line, as it says in Isaiah 28:9-10.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    And that perfection does not come from my striving for it but by reading the Word, allowing the Word to purge me (Jesus said we are purged by the Word). We then, become a doer of the Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is not my striving that pleases God but it is faith that pleases God.

    I have to depend on and trust in Him for everything, even the ability to go on to perfection.

    So you see, even going on to perfection is facilitated by God through His Word. The power of God is on the Word. The Word is life to all flesh. It is only the Word in us that can make us perfect.

    Paul even said that he struggles to do the things he should do and to not do the things he shouldn't do. We are to be led of the Spirit. But the ability to do it can only come through the power of God and His word in us.

    Just as when we got saved, it was God who loved me first, God who brought me in and God who resurrected my dead spirit.

    God did it all. God still does it all and it is God who MADE me righteous from the very day I got saved until now. Even though we are to go on to maturing in the Lord, we are still righteous and perfect in His eyes right now. Jesus can come get us at any time...

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho



    2 Cor 5:21

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE the righteousness of God in him.

    Gal 5:1-6

    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love!

  • Scott 7 years ago

    OK Here is what you've been looking for.

    Compare Isaiah 54 (which is Israel) to Rev. 21 (which again is Israel). Redeemed and restored Israel is the city, the holy Jerusalem. The body is invited to Come by the Spirit and Israel to dwell for ever. It's easy and plain to see.

    Now stop arguing before a real (babe) in Christ or an unbeliever that might be looking for salvation and gets turned off stumbles upon all the remarks made at each other, the BODY.

    Love, peace and joy to all.

  • Christina Paul 7 years ago

    CDA in 1 Cor 11 you must also look not only at the greek like Mickey said but its context too. A pure virgin to a vineyard man? That makes no sense. Thats out of context. I understand your fear. The point of the whole bride context is this - the Bible constantly mentions God as a Jealous God, so he is jealous for us (not in a human sense, but a godly sense. He wants our hearts for Him, not wanting anything but Himself to be First in our hearts). Second, the idea of unity as in marriage. Jesus said "I am in you and you are in me." Third, this relationship is a picture just like any other one - God as our father, friend, master, etc. The point in this is how God is now showing us how deep our intimacy should be with him, for marriage is the most intimate relationship of all.

    We are his bride in that sense in that we are betrothed to him, but he has not yet come back. When he does then it will be FULL intimacy with God, like a wife, no longer a bride. For now tho, we dont have that full intimacy and unity. The Bible doesn't use a lot of words for concepts, like the trinity, God's omnipresence or his omniscience or his omnipotence. Yet not believing those about God would be wrong. It does not mean they are not there.

    You ask, can a man marry his own body? "Husbands, love your wives, JUST AS Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

    27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

    So husbands ought also to love their own wives AS THEIR OWN BODIES. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

    for no one ever hated HIS OWN FLESH, but nourishes and cherishes it, JUST AS Christ also does the church,

    because we are members of His body." Eph 5 I hope that answers the whole Christ marrying his body idea. The husband has to treat his wife like his own body AS Christ does. The point again in him "marrying" his body is that idea of oneness (we need to be one with christ in terms of intimacy, desiring the things he desires, and abiding in him).

    And who is this new jerusalem? "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name." Rev 3:12 Also, Gal 4:26 and Romans in general explains it further, the true Jew is the one circumcised by the spirit.

    Insisting we make ourselves ready tho is not antigrace. Take the parable of the Ten Virgins. Doesn't it seem to throw out grace? Like the other parables? But just because they seem that way, would you throw the parables out? But its still part of the Bible. To answer your concern about throwing out grace I would allude to what you can see in Eph 5, how it describes Christ. It says He has cleansed her, washing her in His Word, SO AS to present himself a holy church witohut spot or blemish. It is because of grace and salvation that the bride has been prepared for her groom. I dont know what version you have that says she made herself ready. No version Ive read says that. It just says she is coming out of heaven "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." None of that implies that she has done it herself, as if her good works are to thank. No it is the garments of christ she has put on, his good deeds. He died for her, purifying her for himself, and now he gets to have her.

  • Christina Paul 7 years ago

    oh and another verse to answer the "how can christ marry his own body?" question: Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be UNITED to his wife, and they will become ONE FLESH." That oneness, you are of one flesh in a sense (not literally). You are becoming united.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Thank you for you comment.

    Although I have to agree that the marriage relationship seems to help us understand how ours should be to God, it is not enough to use to establish that the church is the "bride of Christ." When in fact Rev 21:9-9 tells us exactly who the Lamb's wife is.

    Yes, we do have an unbreakable covenant with God like we make to our spouse but we are in no way married to God. Better yet, we are His body and sons, but not a wife to Him

    As for the story of the ten virgins, I have discusssed that a little in some earlier posts. But I'll explain what it really means.

    That parable is not about the church being the "bride" but is about God's relationship to Israel and how they eventually responded to God when Jesus (their messiah) came to earth.

    It shows how many of the ones who were invited to the wedding party were not ready so they were not allowed in.

    But now there were no guests so they went out and found a bunch of people who were not even related to anybody in the wedding party that would come.

    In the same manner, much of Israel has rejected the messiah they had been waiting for for so long. As a result, God invited in the gentiles to make Jesus their messiah.

    Paul went to preach to the jew first. They rejected Jesus so the gospel was preached to the gentiles.

    AS you can see, the same type of thing happens in the parable of the ten virgins.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    This is a discussion that has needed to take place for a long time. I wouldn't call this arguing.

    Whenever anyone posts a point that supports the bride/church concept, I respond to it.

    Thank you for you posts. They really add to this topic.

  • Scott 7 years ago


    You are refering to 2 parable in your last post.

    The ten virgins and the marriage feast.

    Yes they are refering to Israel, but in the ten virgins parable these were obviously GUESTS of the bride as the groom said to them, "I know you not".

    Christina Paul quoted Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the TEMPLE of my God. Now see Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God almighty and the Lamb are the TEMPLE of it. Again, this must be a reference to the BODY!

  • Christina 7 years ago

    again 1 Cor 11

  • Christina 7 years ago

    2 Cor 11 (not 1). Also, Rev 3 is part of Christ's addressing churches, not Israel or Jews. I would like you to see where you find your definition of holy jerusalem in scripture.

  • Christina 7 years ago

    btw, I just want to make sure Im not assuming too much. But cda basically you believe that new jerusalmen is just OT saints and jews? And that we are just guests to this wedding at the end of days, as the church? And the OT is just addressing Israel, not us? And that as a result, New Jerusalem must prepare herself, or basically is saved by works? But this is not something we have to do, as we are just guests?

  • Scott 7 years ago


    In 2 Cor. 11:1 Paul wrote; Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my FOLLY: and indeed bear with me,

    Also in verse 2 he is addressing his own converts means he is presenting them to Christ AS a virgin, not the church.

    And in Rev. 2 & 3 Jesus is addressing the churches of John's day (present tense) not today's. This rules out the statement to the church of Philadelphia being today's church and in verse people believe "the hour of temptation" refers to the tribulation thus percieving this to be the "rapture", but these are two different words. Then in chapter 4 he (John) begins addressing things to come, ie, in the future. And no new Jerusalem doesn't have to prepare itself, I belive it is redeemed Irael and the bride and we shall enter into it as part of the body of Christ.

  • Christina Paul 7 years ago

    True. I still want to know where it says the bride has to prepare herself. Since CDA claims that such doctrine teaches this, I am interested in knowing where it says that. The statements above say that the bride has to make herself ready without spot or blemish, but that verse is Eph 5 where it says Christ does that, not the bride.

  • Scott  7 years ago


    I don't know the scripture without looking it up and I don't have time to right now, but the people that teach this doctrine are refering to the passage where it talks about the church that is spotless and without blemish.

    As CDA has expressed Christ has become our rigtheousness. We can't add to what He did on the cruel cross of Calvary!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Thank you Scott. Just what I was thinking about malcolm777's post...

    I am very surprised that my address to this doctrine has brought so much controversy and even some anger. Maybe its because this topic might be more significant than I, at first, supposed.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    1. The holy Jerusalem is an actual city that comes down as per Rev 21:9,10. In Rev 21:11-27 John then goes on to describe the city.

    2. Some say the OT saints are the people of Israel that, like Abraham, believed God unto righteousness. Also, some say Israel is the Lamb's wife. But Rev 21:9,10 says it is holy Jerusalem.

    3. Hosea was prophecying to Israel at the time. The covenant promises he speaks of do belong to the gentiles who believe since we have been engrafted into the "HOUSEHOLD" of Israel but we are not Israel.

    4. The "without spot" idea is from Eph 5:27 and is used to support the idea that the bride has to make herself ready statement from Rev 19:7: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

    From that scripture people say the "bride" has to make herself ready which means, incorrectly, we, the church, have to make ourselves ready.

    Those two scriptures have been used by the church/bride concept proponents for years. I have heard them preach over and over again that once the church, the "bride of Christ" has made herself ready and is without spot and blemish then Jesus will come for her glorious bride.

    It is right that Jesus through the word's washing power presents the church to himself without spot. But it is wrongly preached that the husband comparisons made in Eph 5 prove that the body of Christ is the the "bride of Christ".

    In Eph 5 Paul is only telling us how we should treat our spouses. We are to love them just as Christ loves His own body. It is nothing more than that.

    5. We will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb and we will also be citizens of holy Jerusalem.

    We're all gonna be there together; saved Israel, the saints, the church, everybody who makes Jesus their Lord! We'll be there forever with the Lord in that awesome city. Its gonna be some party! Can't wait!

  • Christina Paul 7 years ago

    So who is the new jerusalem in your definition (the wife of the lamb as it is defined in Rev 21)? If I am following your thinking then the bride is not part of the body (the church is the body), and the bride is the jews/israel (whom God made those promises to in the OT)?

  • cdacoffee 7 years ago

    The bride is the holy city. Israel could be the bride I guess. But Rev 21:9-10 says it is the holy Jerusalem.

    And youu are correct in what I am saying, the bride is not part of the Body. It is holy Jerusalem.

    And God did make those promises to Israel and we have those promises too since Jesus died "once and for all" His sacrifice covers us too. That is one of the reasons it is called the New Covenant. God has extended those same promises to Christians too.

  • Christina 7 years ago

    what is your interpretation of these veres

    James 2

    14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected

    John 3:36

    "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

    Heb 5:8-10 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

    Are verses like these in your opinion teaching that we must do works, thus throwing out salvation and removing grace form the gospel?

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I think once you have faith and have obtained grace, you start the process of "being transformed by the renewal of your mind", Romans 12:2. This makes you WANT to good and good things. Faith with works is when you believe enough to trust and ACT upon it.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    First of all. What translation are you using?

    1. John 3:36 most accurately reads:

    "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

    You translation incorrectly translates the word as "obey" rather than "believeth not the Son".

    All that is required is believing on the Son to have everlasting life.

    2. In Heb 5:8-10 The first definition of the greek word from which "obey" comes, is: "to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively".

    The idea really is to listen to the Lord and allow Him to be Lord of your life. But listening to Him is a skill. One way is to read the Word. Another is to become aquainted with His voice in prayer. If you read the Word and know what it says then you can compare what you hear in prayer to what you have read in the Word. Whatever you are told by whatever voice, including your pastor and all other Christians (including myself), had better line up with the Word of God. That is why reading the word and "listening" to what the Word is telling you is so important. Otherwise you'll just believe anybody and whatever they might say. Everything you hear has to line up with the Word of God. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

    There really are no places in the Word that tell us we have to do works. At the surface it seems that that is the case. But Read Romans and then go to Galations. Paul said he was afraid of those who did works (did the law).

    You see, if I have faith working in me then it will come out of me. There are many good works I do in life but I don't do them to because I think I should do them to make GOd happy. I do them because I want to, its just in me to do them for no real reason except that the word of God is growing in my heart. It is who I have become.

    And there are also things in me that aren't so pretty. If I do those things does it mean that I don't have eternal life? No, it just means that I am not perfect. That is why I have to have the righteousness of God as a gift. Works or no works,

    I'll never be good enough without it.

    Paul said he had the same struggles in life too. And what about King David? He comitted murder. He even kept the woman he killed for as his wife. God still said David had a heart after Him.

    So, works comes out of a changed heart. It isn't works that changes the heart. It isn't works that God honors. It is grace through faith. Faith pleases God.

    BTW there are 3 kinds of faith.

    1. The faith that makes you believe there is a God

    2. The Word of God is faith and is almost always what Paul is refering to. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

    3. The gift of faith as one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit.

  • Christina 7 years ago

    I was using NASB because when I researched it it came up as the most literal translation of the original text (more than the KJV). So I dont think its mistranslated. But I like your take on the verses. My opinion is regardless of who the bride is, I just dont think Rev 19:7 necessarily teaches works. I think its line of thought could be like the verses above. Not thats its teaching to take away grace, but its teaching evidence of grace (a changed life). Basically, clothing ourselves in Christ (Gal 3).

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    You should also get an Amplified Bible as well.

    But every translation has problems. I use the KJV. For me the biggest problem with the KJV is not so much in accuracy but rather that the English word's meanings when it was written have changed from then to now. For example: the word "suffer". Then it meant "let". As in "Suffer the little children to come unto me..." Today it means "hurt". So, knowing what the word meant then is key. And at times hard to find the original English meaning. When you have a question, just go look at the Hebrew/Greek to find out. Especially when it looks like there is an inconsistancy.

    It isn't that Rev 19:7 is teaching to take away grace it is the people who preach the church/bride concept that are undermining grace, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Since they believe the church is the "bride" then by default they have to preach that the church is getting herself ready and be without spot and blemish before the Lord comes to get us in order to be consistant with Rev 19:7. If the "bride" is the church then the church has to get herself ready according to Rev 19:7.

    Of course, because of grace, we are already righteous and without spot and blemish in the Lord's sight. We are already ready! Praise God! Therefore, it stands to reason that the church can't be the one getting herself ready. It has to be something or someone else. So, since the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem according to Rev 21:9-10, then it makes sense that that city is now being readied in heaven to come down and not the church. It has to be that the "bride" is not the church and is, in fact, the holy Jerusalem just as the Word of God says it is.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    And Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you!"

  • mdwashpower 7 years ago from USA

    If one is married, we call the woman our wife, but when she comes down to meet the groom, she is his bride. The Lamb's wife, is his bride. Jesus spoke a parable of five foolish, and five wise virgins who was waiting for the bridgroom to come. This parable dipicts those who would be ready and those who would be unprepared. All ten virgins slept, while waiting for the bridegroom to come, but the five wise virgins had something extra which was oil. This oil dipicts the Holy Spirit and that is what keeps them ready. Enoch, and Elijiah were caught up onto God without tasting death. The only way they could make it there was that they were sealed with the righteousness of Christ. The new Jerusalem does not come down until the thousand years are expired. All of the righteous are inside the New Jerusalem when it comes down because they came up in the first resurrection. The rest of the dead which are the wicked do not live again until the thousand years has expired. This is the second resurrection which is the second death that the wicked would experience. This when the great White throne judgement will take place. So blessed is he that comes up in the first resurrection on such the second death had no power, but we shall be priest of God and shall reign with Christ. Rev. chapter 20.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    Mostly true. But the story of the ten virgins is about Israel, how they weren't ready for the appearance of their messiah the first time so, God sent the gospel of Grace to the gentiles next. " the jew first and then the gentiles." Romans 1:16

    Please read my earlier post on this.

  • Scott  7 years ago

    Hi Coffeeman,

    As I stated in a previuos post, I think the ten virgins were GUESTS of the bride, ie; bride's maids.

    The groom said "I no you not" and he was betrothed to ONE not ten. Thanks

  • Scott 7 years ago


    Good study. The only thing is, I don't believe the woman in Rev. 12 refers to the church. I believe it refers to Israel, which in the OT IS refered to as a woman. In the NT the church/body is refered to in the MASCULINE form and that would be right, as the church is the body of Christ (Col. 1:18).

    Even in your comments on the 12 gates in new Jerusalem, this eludes to Israel. Compare Is.54 to Rev.21, both describe Israel not the church. Can a man marry his own body? How about his son or daughter? That would be incest. Some things in the bible are symbolic but, some are literal.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I wanted to add if I may, Jesus says in Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

    A man really shouldn't marry his brother, sister or mother.

    If this is true, then God being holy and righteous wouldn't either

  • Debradoo 7 years ago

    Good point there Scott! Note that Jesus covers the entire family except the husband, wife, or father. Since we cannot be the father of Jesus nor can we be the husband of Jesus nor can we be the wife of Jesus.

  • Andreas 7 years ago

    If we say, that we are the bride of Christ, then we will loose our inheritance.

    We are SONS of God, have the Spirit of Sonship inside of us, members of a male body, the Body of Christ. He (Christ) is masculine.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    The church/bride concept HAS to be "read into" the scriptures because it simply is not there.

    The strongest and most obvious evidence that the church is not the "bride", aside from Rev 21:9-10, is that Paul repeatedly refered to the "church" as the "body of Christ". He wrote, time after time, that the church is the "body of Christ" and YET he never once wrote, taught or refered to the church as the "bride of Christ". Mark it down! If the church is the "bride of Christ" he would have written it in all of those letters he wrote to churches! He never talked in circles about anything. If we can't see that then we don't know Paul. So, I suggest we all need read the NT 150 times over before we come to the bogus conclusion that the church is the "bride of Christ"!

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Answer one question. Did Adam marry his body? Case closed!

    God did not created women from the dust but from Adam's body in whom became his wife. Why not just make her as He did Adam. The answer is obvious, at least to some.

  • Scott 7 years ago


    Did Adam marry his body? God CREATED Adam first. Then He MADE the woman from the (side) He took out of Adam. Gen. 2:23, And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was TAKEN OUT OF MAN. You believe the body/church is the bride. We don't, and the more I study this the more I'm convinced that you're doctrine is not true. You base all your believe on the scriptures that give comparisons and similes, as cda said. The bible DOES literally state that God calls Himself a husband to ISRAEL (I think it was you that used the passaage in Hosea where God called Himself Ishi). If you believe in replacement theology then this may work for you.

    You still haven't produced one passage that ACTUALLY says we are the bride of Christ. The ones you use have to be added to or read into to make it say that.

  • mdwashpower 7 years ago from USA

    Christ is consider a bridegroom, so a groom must have a wife. Is Christ in love with a city or the people of the city? New Jerusalem is a city. The old tabernacle was designed according to the pattern of the one in heaven. New Jerusalem is exactly like the one that was on earth. The children of Isareal represented 12 tribes which out of these 12 tribes comes every other nation. We are spiritual Isareal. And you will enter through one of the gates of the city. New Jerusalem will house the saints of GOD. It is the saints that Christ Died for, and it is the saints that He will receive. Not a City that He prepared for them who loves Him. Jesus says He was going to prepare a place for them (His Saints) the place is the New Jerusalem and its location is in heaven right now. Jesus says He is coming back to receive His saints so that we might be where He is, and He is in Heaven. The wicked the bible says did not have a place that was prepared for them. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will enter into the place He has prepared. The children of Isareal is a type of Spiritual Isareal the Church which houses every nation, kindred, tongue and people. Thats why in Christ there is neither jew, or gentile,or greek, or male or female. Is the church the literal body of CHRIST? NO is the answer. We are many members but one body. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one. Jesus prayed that we would be one even as He is one with the Father. A woman and a man becomes one through marriage. These twain becomes one. The oneness that Christ is speaking of when it comes to the Church is a kin to the oneness of a marital relationship of a man and a woman. It is this pattern that is used throughout the bible to describe Christ closeness with His people. As a woman who is espouse to her husband. CHRIST desires to have a personal relationship with His people. We are the sheep of His pasture, but we are not literal sheep. And better yet where is His pasture?

  • Mickey 7 years ago

    Show me the passage in the OT that says God will Raise up an institution and call it a Church. And teach us the spiritual significants of God taking a part of Adam's body for Him to marry?

  • Scott 7 years ago

    I know of no OT scripture that says God will raise up an institution or call it a church. Furthermore I don't recall anyone claiming there is one. But, the spiritual significance of woman being taken from the man's side is to show that she is to be beside him, not in front, back, beneath or below him. Thank you for asking.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    Please excuse the typo in the former post. I meant, not in front, back, beneath or above him.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    CASE CLOSED Mickey?

    You are the one grabbing at straws... Standing on sinking sand, as it were...

  • mdwashpower 7 years ago from USA

    Mickey as time progresses words change there meaning, sometimes, but the escents of the thought is not lost. Today we dont refer to the church as a synagogue, but the escents of the thought is that it is a meeting place for the people of God. One great gift that God gave to Adam was the ability to name things and whatever name Adam called it that became its name. So likewise, we have the same gift of naming persons, places, and things, and whatever we decide to call it as a refrence that is what it will be; unless we decide to change it. New words are being added to the English language on an ongoing basis. And for those of you who are studying the word, know this that everything in the bible is not to be taken literal, especially if it is dealing with symbolic language or making a parallel between something you know and something you dont know. That is what a parable is. Taking something natural and fimilar to explain something spiritual. The substance of the thoughts can be lost if you do not understand the parallel. GOD made a city for HIS people to dwell in to be with Him. That is the substance of the whole marriage of the Lamb.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    If you are referencing Gen.2:19, God created Adam with a superior intelect and he named the LIVING CREATURES, not places and things, and it wasn't a gift. Nothing symbolic about that. What about in Gen.1:5,8,13,19,23 and 31, were those 24 hour periods or was THAT symbolic, too? And how about Gen.1:29, does that mean it's OK to eat marijuana? Yes, there is a lot of symbolism in the bible but, not always. God was pretty plain about who He called Himself a husband to.

  • Mickey 7 years ago


    You can't even answer my questions! You need to leave the theological debates to theologians. If you think I'm grabbing for straws, reveals your shallow understanding of the Word.

  • Scott 7 years ago


    Evolution is theological debate, too!

    Theory is an unproven assumption or speculation, for us lay persons it's a guess!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho


    From what I have read of your posts I can see you are an intelligent man but please, stop with the stupid questions...

    No Mickey, Adam did not marry his body. And Jesus will not marry His body either because the body of Christ is NOT his bride.

    The very reason I started questioning the church/bride concept is because we are refered to as the "body of Christ" over and over by Paul and Jesus NEVER said it either. We are never called "the bride of Christ". In fact as I have said before, over and over, Rev 21:9-10 CLEARLY says that the holy Jerusalem is the Lamb's wife therefore the holy Jerusalem will also be His bride.

    If God in the OT said He will marry land in Isa 62:4, then He can make the holy Jerusalem His wife.

    "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married."

    ...and I will not leave the theological debates to theologians. That is what went wrong with Christianity in the first place.

    You'll just have to accept the fact that the body of Christ is NOT the bride of Christ and revamp your entire website and ministry...

  • lionswhelp profile image

    lionswhelp 7 years ago

    The Bride of Christ is the Church because the Apostle Paul wrote this in Ephesians 5:23-25. Contrary to what you say. Christ is the husband of the Church where the Holy Spirit resides in each person that makes up the Bride or the Church, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17. In the Old Testament Israel was the Bride of Christ or the God of Israel then, Jeremiah 31:32-33. The Wife was put away from God because of sin and will be redeemed when he returns. The Church is the place where the redeemed Israel is bride of Christ, Romans 11:25-27, Revelation 22:17. This is all very symbolic and you do need the Holy Spirit to understand what God is doing here.

    The Lionswhelp

  • Debradoo 7 years ago

    Lionswhelp said .. Contrary to what you say. Christ is the husband of the Church where the Holy Spirit resides in each person that makes up the Bride or the Church, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17. .. end quote

    Are you saying that Christ will marry the Holy Spirit?

  • Scott 7 years ago


    Lionswhelp is says Paul wrote in Eph.5:22-25 that the bride of Christ is the church. My bibles don't say that at all, does yours? It does say Christ is the head of the church and for husbands to love their wives AS Christ loves the church. 1 Cor.3:16 & 17 says nothing about a bride.

    He is right about Israel being the WIFE as there are many OT scriptures that support that but, I'm not going to list them. Finally, In Rev.22:17, the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) and the bride (the holy Jerusalem, Rev.21:9,10) say, Come.

    He needs to look at Col.1:18, And He is the HEAD of the body, the church.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Like I said... The proponents of the church/bride concept THINK that the Holy Spirit is telling them something that is NOT written in those scriptures. The Holy Spirit doesn't do that. There is no interpretaion to be done. It says what it means and means what it says. Nothing more.

    Maybe it is that the Holy Spirit is telling me the church is the body of Christ and the church is not His bride! ...and that it is time that that doctrinal piller is knocked down for the sake of the gospel of grace that Paul preached.

    The fact is, those scriptures are quite clear that the church is the body of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body. The church is His body, not His "bride".

  • Debradoo 7 years ago


    Wow, we must have the same exact Bible cause mine does not say that either!

    Why is it that people cling so desperately to this "Bride of Christ" doctrine? Those that refuse this doctrine are usually accused of being without the 'revealing by the Holy Spirit' and 'immature in their Christian walk'. But, I have found through experience that usually whatever anyone accuses another of, they are the guilty party in the end.

  • Scott 7 years ago


    I wonder why people want to make a big mystery out of the bible instead of just reading what it says. I guess they can't help it if they've been taught wrong.

  • Debradoo 7 years ago

    It just astounds me that one cannot let this doctrine go for just a moment and allow the light to shine. Many seem almost afraid to let this doctrine go. Is it possible that their (there is those that adhere strictly to this bride doctrine) entire belief system collapses if they were to question?

    This may explain many that go astray. Their faith is in their belief system (doctrine) and not the Word of God.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    There are many websites and ministries that are pretty much built on the notion that the church is the bride. If they have to swollow their pride and admit that the church isn't the bride then they will have to revamp their whole ministry as well as do damage control with their partners in order to keep their livelihood going.

    But for the rest of us its usually a pride issue. Who of us likes to change our beliefs, especially ones that we have adhered to so strongly for so many years?

    I never really believed the bride/church concept but then I never thought to much about. I didnt' really care until one day I realized that it contradicts the entire Pauline Revelation of the Gospel of Grace. When I kept hearing preachers say the the church has to "get herself ready" while at the same time I read over and over again that we have been made righteous, I decided it was time I started researching it... Only to find out that the Lamb's wife is the holy Jerusalem. Now then, that doesn't contradict the Gospel of Grace whereas the bride/church concept does. The whole of Jesus work on the cross was to make us righteous by faith as a free gift and to give us life more abundantly!

    The bottom line is this:

    The word of God is to be taken literally UNLESS it says otherwise. That is what Jesus did. He always said that He was telling a parable if it had a representative meaning. So, we can count on the rest of scripture meaning what is says and that it say what it means.

    Unfortunately there are always those that want to turn the whole Bible in to some sort of mystical book.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    And all this time I thought we were to come as little chidren.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    I just read a scripture in Hebrews 11 that says a city is being made ready for the Christians. It is being readied for the body of Christ. Christ is the head of the body of Christ. The holy Jerusalem is the city being made ready for Christ and His body, the church. That city is the Lamb's wife. Looks like those of us who are in Christ marry the holy Jerusalem? It seems that scripture is very consistent in supporting the fact that the Lamb's wife is Holy Jerusalem.

    Just a thought...

  • Clandestine profile image

    Clandestine 7 years ago

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    That's right Clandestine.

    I am a son of God so that makes me a relative.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    Hi cda,

    Hoe about Gal. 4:26? But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. And Gal. 4:28-31 calling us CHILDREN, not a bride or wife!

    Just another thought...............

  • Scott 7 years ago


    I found this passage this morning. Just wanted to share it with you. Matt.9:15 And Jesus said to them, Can the CHILDREN (or sons) of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? Then it refer to John3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the FRIEND of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy (His friend) therefore is fulfilled.

    Again the reference is to sons and a friend.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    Great references Scott. More proof that the church is not the bride.

    My wife just went to a conference where the guest speaker was teaching a bunch of stupid stuff on the "bride of Christ" garbage. That speaker went on and on about doing works in order to "get ready". That confirms what I have said here: the "bride of Christ" doctrine ignores the entire purpose of Jesus death on the cross. That is to give us His righteousness so that we can make heaven and miss hell. That doctrine in itself is the greatest heresy of all.

    It essentially denies the price Jesus paid for us all in order to MAKE us the righteousness of God and MAKE us without any sin, spot or blemish. He already did it all and that is the bottom line!

  • Debradoo 7 years ago

    This 'bride of Christ' doctrine also supports the reformation theology. Reformation theology is the belief that Christians are the spiritual replacement of the nation of Israel (or God's chosen) and it supports anti-semitism. We are supposed to pray for and support the nation of Israel. This is, indeed, a dangerous doctrine.

  • debradoo 7 years ago

    Oops .. mean 'replacement theology' not reformation theology, though reformation is just a nice way of saying replacement.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    like I have been saying... I think that if people want to adheare to the belief that the church is the "bride of Christ" I don't care... Just stop preaching that the church has to "make HERSELF ready". It makes people think that they have to attain righteousness by trying to do things in order to be "without spot and bemish".

    Paul called people (the Galations for example) that do that foolish. But our righteousness is by faith through grace and not of ourselves. God said He doesn't remember our sins. He also says we are perfect already. We have His holiness and righteousness.

    The great danger is that once we start doing things to become perfect we are putting ourselves under the law once again. Once that happens, we are under the curse of the law as well.

  • Scott 7 years ago

    The church I attend teaches having a personal relationship with Jesus, not making one's self good enough. I think that's what all the churches need to focus on. The ONLY way to be ready.

  • Barry 7 years ago

    Whats great about this hub is that it tells the truth about who the bride of christ is.

    Just because we aren't the bride doesn't mean we can't have an intimate relationship with Him.

  • Scott 7 years ago


    Exactly, like a father and son, not a wife. I can't be the wife of another male. That wouldn't line up just right, would it?

  • kaloomba profile image

    kaloomba 7 years ago

    Interesting hub and comments.. We all need to remember that using a Greek translation only muddy's the waters. Therefore, it's imperitive to understand the scripture writings from a Hebrew perspective as well as understanding Hebrew culture.

    cdacoffee - Though you state correctly that the church is not the bride of Christ, I urge you to turn to the Hebrew roots of your faith so that you can gain much more insight into the TRUTH of many things about the 'Christian' church of today. It is missing many, many things, including the TRUE Feasts of God (Easter and Christmas have nothing to do with Yahshua/Jesus!).

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 7 years ago from Idaho

    The NT was originally written in Greek. So I go to the original.

    And as for my responses to the OT scriptures quoted, yes, I did use the Hebrew. And I understand all the type and shadows of the OT and God's relationship to Israel as well as its culture. Think I'll have some Matza Ball Soup while I write this and celebrate the Passover.

    And so what if Easter and Christmas have nothing to do with Yahshua/Jesus? But for me it does. Those are the times I celabrate His birth and ressurection. It doesn't matter if they conicide with the "feasts" or have their roots in them or not...

    I am not getting into a debate about OT law and feasts especially since the old covenant and its sacrifices and feasts are passed away. We live under a new and better covenant.

  • Debradoo 7 years ago

    Absolutely Barry and well said!

  • Greg 7 years ago

    Amen, we are complete in Him, we don't have to prepare, in fact, our conversation is in heaven (Col 2:10 Philippians 3;20) We are NO bride.

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Disagree all you want Morgan but Revelation is clear that the "bride of Christ" is the Holy City of Jerusalem. Don't be stupid.

  • Jewenning 6 years ago

    Thanks for sharing your study. I woke up this morning with those famous words "without spot or wrinkle" so strong in my mind. I asked the Lord what He is really saying. How do we get to the place where we are without spot or wrinkle? And I ss I asked him about it, it was clear we are already righteous, clean, a holy people, in fact, a peculiar people. So I set out to find some answeres. While searching I found your post. Awesome to know the Holy Spirit is speaking the same thing to others. Thinking that we have more to do, to make ourselves ready and cleanse ourself is the same bondage I came out of as a former Catholic. It leads to self-rigtheousness or thinking you have to do more. As, if the work on the cross was insufficient. Thank you Father for revealing your truth and freedom in Christ. We are holy, righteous and presentable to our Lord! Simply because of God's own sacrifice.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    The only thing we are told to work to do is to "LABOR to enter into His rest..."

    It is extremely hard to remember to think that it is by grace that we are saved since from the time we are born we are taught to work for our money, rewards and privilages. So, when we come up against grace and all the things that God did for us in His son for free we can't seem to grasp it. We just don't "get it". That is why we are told to renew our minds in the word of God.

    Just like the moth to the flame, we are drawn back into doing "works". As a result of that human compulsion we have to work, or "labor" at entering into His rest. That is, we have to force ourselves into resting in knowing that it is by grace we are saved, righteous, healed and blessed. Its all free and a gift from God. Its so hard to believe He loves us that much but He does!

  • Jordan 6 years ago

    I was searching and ran across your site. A good point about not making ourselves ready. Impossible. If it was we would have no need for the redemption that Christ offers.

    However I truly am sorry that you have missed the intimacy that our salvation brings. A bride would not be a bride without the example of the love of the trinity for His creation. We are meant for so much more than physical love. The emotional bond that a man and wife share are merely a taste of what Christ offers.

    P.S. We are the new Jerusalem... We are grafted in, and we become His glory. Love ya.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    How can you judge that I have missed the intimacy that our salviotion brings. You don't know what my relationship with GOd is like.

    There is an intimacy in fellowship that we all can have during our times spent in prayer and worship and reading His word. But it is not like that of a husband and wife. It is like that of sons and Father. That is why it is written that we cry "Abba, Father".

  • Jordan 6 years ago

    You're right I can't judge the intimacy that you have. I am sorry for that.

    I don't say that there is no intimacy in fellowship. I will say that this is not the full extent of what Father wants us to have. He created us to enjoy, not to fight through life. That was the result of the fall. He made us in His image like nothing else created. In my opinion God is a good artist. The very best. In fact a perfect artist. This is why when He created us in His image He made us just like Him. It's beautiful. We were created to experience all possible purity. Purity is joy. Everything that is good was made by Him and for Him. Back and forth. To love and be loved... That is our purpose. And what would love be if we could not experience it to the very fullest. So there is no love that we will not experience with Him.

    I DO NOT COME AGAINST YOU! I want you to know that. :) I am your brother for sure. Thanks for responding.

  • Debradoo profile image

    Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Why is the thought that those of us who do not accept that we are the 'bride of Christ' is .. We cannot have an intimate relationship with Him? What can be more intimate than someone knowing me and all my stinking baggage and still making a decision to suffer on my behalf, and then leaving the decision to acknowledge the suffering and death, up to me? My husband and I have an intimate relationship, but he would NEVER go so far as to do as Jesus has done for me. My husband would not allow me to lie to him and take from him and mess around on him, etc. And then my husband would not die for me in an act of suffering (offering me redemption) and leave the decision to stay or go up to me. God's relationship towards me cannot be anything BUT intimate. He knows it all when it comes to me and He still chooses to love me and call me His. And my relationship towards God is intimate because I receive His love and grow in His love and understand that NOBODY can love me like HE loves me. NOBODY. My love towards God is on an intimate level because I am totally dependent upon Him for my being. And it is more important to God that I focus on His love towards me and not so much on my love towards Him. It is HIS love that makes the difference.

  • Jordan 6 years ago

    That is good. Again, I am sorry for judging your intimacy with Christ. I already did apologize for that. :) I mean it.

    You have an awesome point, but read Hosea. That is the love that He has for us. I'm sure you and your husband are in love, otherwise you would not be together. Tell me that you love any person in the world more than your husband and I'll tell you that you are missing God's plan. Even my mother does not love me as much as she loves my father. And I had great parents. The point is if there is a comparison to the ultimate love that the Trinity has for us it is an intimate marriage. A fairy tale romance, where His love is perfect. The kind of love that only the young believe in. Thus a childlike faith is necessary in order to understand it. I desire that from Him, but His holiness demands that I remember my place. A servant sent to work in His fields. But a prince adopted into His line, and a constant and loving admirer.

    Please do not take offence at anything I have said, for it is said in love.

  • Debradoo profile image

    Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Hey Jordan. Good to meet you. I am not denying that God has compared His love toward us and our love toward Him as a marriage. But, it is comparable because it's meaning is that we are to be faithful to Him as He is to us ...I do not believe that we are to actually marry Him. Or that we are the bride of Christ, nor are we going to be His bride.

    And I am going to watch my words carefully here .. But the only intimacy I can think of (and please correct me if wrong) that is between a husband and wife that lacks in other relationships is of a sexual nature?

    My husband, next to Jesus, is the most important person in my life. But even he (hubby) does not come close to being the Man in my life that Jesus is and always will be.

    Marriage is a covenant relationship. And our relationship with God is a covenant relationship .. And I believe this is the point God is making in His Word when He speaks of marriage and His people in the NT.

    This 'bride of Christ' doctrine can be dangerous on so many levels. Just as CDA has pointed out time and time again. It puts our thinking on a wrong path where the Word of God is concerned. And this leads to wrong actions (like wasting our time on works that Jesus has already taken care of.)

    And I do not take offense and hope you do not as well.

  • Joseph Skinner 6 years ago

    No The Church is not the bride of Christ. The bride will come out of the Church. The Church is asleep but the bride of Christ is getting ready. She made herself ready! How did she make herself ready? She applied the Truth of Gods Word to her life. She perfected holiness in the fear of God. Like Enoch she walked with God. Remember Christ will do His own choosing who His bride is. If we say we are the bride of Christ then how is He doing the choosing?

  • brotheryochanan profile image

    brotheryochanan 6 years ago from BC, canada

    Excellent hub.. this should knock some pride outta the churches lol... my sentiments exactly.

    Im glad this truth is finally getting out, maybe some other truths will come forth.


  • Jordan 6 years ago

    Thanks Debra. I enjoyed this conversation. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." I have been strengthened and do draw closer to Him. I will not attempt to earn his grace. :) I will simply pour myself out on Him. That's what He asks. :) The rest is elementary and unimportant. I respectfully disagree, but wish the blessings of Christ upon you all and your respective ministries. (Whether they be to hundreds, thousands, or the ones you meet at the coffe shop.)

    GOD Bless.


  • Debradoo profile image

    Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Thanks Jordan! I receive those blessings in the name of Jesus. It has been a pleasure to converse with you as you are able to defend without offending. That is rare on these sites. God bless!

  • rsrcabdi profile image

    rsrcabdi 6 years ago

    and for the real thing Jesus used to pray in a temple/mihrab as far as we have in his teachings and it was Peter the disciple of Jesus who founded the first church and we have to find out the truth in the gospel so far as in the bible there are two verses on which Jesus is rebuking Peter and proving him Satan and telling his other disciples not follow with what peter comes with after him as the following verses in Mark:"

    8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men. 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    then do we follow the Peter that Jesus Christ said to him Go to my back satan when we are using churches for praying and ignoring where Jesus Chris used to pray.

    So far an in all are we in this gloomy lose?

  • ducq 6 years ago

    Some comments after reading all the above.

    The bride making herself ready does not necessarily infringe on us being complete in Christ. While you are correct that many preachers err greatly here, there are many ways of making one's self ready that do not imply that you are sinful or incomplete. You are in danger of being accused of using this as a strawman, though your comments appear to be sincere. It's great to emphasized the full scope of God's grace in Christ, but the two are potentially completely different subjects.

    Secondly, while scripture never equates the church with the bride, it also never makes them mutually exclusive. You can demonstrate that those who blithely co-identify them are walking in ignorance, but you have nowhere in the above (and i hope i've read it all carefully) demonstrated either who she is (that is, who is the New Jerusalem) or where she comes from (other than some vague guesses that she might be some part of Israel.) This puts you in danger of denying one aspect of something (quite well) that you on the other hand profess to know nothing about. The reason I see this as dangerous is that it puts your position on a subject above the subject itself. Doing so usually results in the cessation of learning.

    Thirdly, "Micky" with whom you've had the most discussion on this topic said about 8 months ago: "Not all of Adam was the bride. Note that God didn't create Eve from the earth as He did Adam. But took a rib out of the body of Adam, not his whole body. The whole Church is not the bride, ..." I thought this a most interesting point, one that does not necessarily contradict your position (see? i had to call it a 'position' instead of a 'consideration'), yet no one seemed prompted to explore the point at the time. I had been hoping for more discussion on "Who is the bride?" than on "Who isn't the bride?"

    I do not yet have a settled opinion on these matters, so the above comments are simply a response to having read this webpage (found in a search) thus far.


  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    I have said who the "bride" might be. It is clearly stated in Rev. that the "Lamb's Wife" is the holy city of Jerusalem. I see no real need to explore it beyond that. I've decided to accept it at face value. The question has been answered in those passages.

    And it isn't that I know nothing about The New Jerusalem but it is that the New Jersulam is not the central topic of this Hub. Also the holy city comes down from heaven as described in the passages that I have quoted many times in this hub.

    And yes there are things we can do to grow in Christ such as reading the word but it is that the church has, by an large, equated growing in Christ with works. Yes, we are to lay aside the weight that so easily besets us but it isn't the laying aside of the weights that make us righteous etc. It is the free grace of God that has made us ready.

    Thank you for your comments.

  • ducq 6 years ago

    Agreed. It only could be the free grace of God that makes us ready. And yes, many in Christendom fail to understand that our works are pre-accepted by God because we have been "accepted in the Beloved" by adoption, "that we might become God's righteousness in Him." To attempt to please God with our works, rather than trusting that He is already pleased with Christ's work, appears to be the essence of Hebrews 3 and 4 in which we are warned to enter into His rest, because the work is finished. How dare we try to work in an arena in which God himself rests? Yet we are to be diligent to enter into that rest. "For he that has entered into his rest, he also has rested from his works, as God did from his own."

    So the Sabbath there is the Sabbath of new creation, of which Christ is the first-fruits. And just like God did not take kindly to violations of the Sabbath under law, he does not take kindly to our violating new creation's Sabbath, in which we would attempt to work out what is already finished; i.e. God vindicated by Christ's righteousness.

    So works themselves are fine; the problem comes when we think that somehow they'll make us righteous.

    I think in this light it would be helpful to differentiate between the grace that saves us, and the grace by which we live before him. There's not a thing we could do without the saving grace, but we have fellowship with him as we walk in his grace; that is, we are working together.

    I trust you would agree?

  • Bishop Simon Mac Onyango 6 years ago

    I don'y agree with you totally! what did Paul mean when he siad he espoused us to one husband

  • doctorephesus 6 years ago


    Excellent analysis of how a seemingly slight misquoting of the Word is the initial fracture line or chip that leads inexorably to cracking a large section of one's foundation. The truth is simply eroded by an error in knowledge or Biblical application, the result of which suffocates understanding, blessings and wisdom, perhaps for millions of others.


    Such misquoting or erroneous insertion by man - "Bride" of Christ - also has a broader lesson, namely, that such error and its wide impact has nothing to do with

    satanic activity. Committing errors in the Truth of the Word violates laws as concrete as the law of gravity.

    Evidence can be gleaned on even a grander scale, as cdacoffee mentioned in the 9th paragraph from the top, the "...[Bride of Christ] was first coined by the Roman Catholic Church...". We can appreciate the panorama he just focused on: he went back to 100-200 AD!

    Is there any wonder the fracture line is as broad as we

    see it 2000+ yrs later? Same error. Same splat from gravity's pull.


    cda's analysis here is to me an excellent example of many professed untruths: to think of the ramifications of parroting erroneous leadership; simply - but a harsh reality - is that it's because of incorrect teaching from the very beginning. What else has been?


    There are comments by others that disagree with cda's Biblical premises, not just his opinions. Is there any ramifications for us personally? I believe we can examine at least two topics in prayerfully:

    (1) Why did Paul imply in Ephesians 1:1-2, by writing to the "saints" and "faithful", both to identify others by title as well as the order of the titles (saints preceding faithful?

    (2) What is the implication of Paul's discourse of the existence of a "remnant" in Romans 9 & 11 to us today?

    It appears by this word, through Paul's explanation as a reflection of the existence of a remnant through past millennia, that such a group of believers was always present to carry on the truth. Does it apply to believes today?

    Thanks, cda, for the insights.

  • Eric 6 years ago

    this is foolish teaching. How do you explain the story of Hosea? And Ezekiel 16? Israel is a type of the church in the old testament.

    I almost see your point about getting ourselves ready because I agree we are saved by grace. But we should make our selves pretty. We should strive for holiness. GOD said be ye holy for I am holy

  • ducq 6 years ago

    It's apparent that one of the issues that keeps resurfacing here is that of an overzealous defense of free grace. I don't believe anyone in the entire discussion above is trying to erode the simple truth that God's grace is all from God, and our attempts to contribute to our own salvation are "as filthy rags."

    However, the subject of the bride of the Lamb is a most peculiar forum from which to occasion such remarks. They might be better treated as two separate subjects, because they are.

    Yet cdacoffee replies to me, "I see no real need to explore it beyond that. I've decided to accept it at face value. The question has been answered in those passages[...] And it isn't that I know nothing about The New Jerusalem but it is that the New Jersulam is not the central topic of this Hub. "

    Well then, what IS the central topic of this Hub? Grace? The URL at the top says "Who-Is-The-Bride-of-Christ". That's how I found this page; the search engine spit it out when I was researching the bride of Christ. I don't even know what a "Hub" is, other than the fact that I can read what others have written, and there is a space at the bottom for contributions.

    As to Eric's comment, I am intrigued. If Israel in the old testament is a type of the Church (sounds dispensational), would that apply for most/all instances of Israel's history? If so, there would be quite a bit of material to digest regarding the church.

    Also, (Eric), I didn't understand to what you were referring when you said "this is foolish teaching."

    My general opinion on subjects about which scripture is largely silent, is 'Let's wait and see.' Not that we can't understand; there is no upper limit on wisdom. But until we do understand, there is little use in making a doctrine out of it.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Biship Onyango,

    The pasage you mentioned about Paul espousing us to one husband makes only a comparison to promises we make in marrage to the promises God makes to us. He does not say we are his bride.

    Also, the word in the greek for "espouse" should have been translated "joined" and the word for "husband" in the greek should have been translated "man".

    I see this scripture as trying to descibe to us how the Lord will take care of us through his promises just as we are to take care of our wives through the promises we make her.

    This scripture in no way has the force to establish that the church is the "bride".

    Thanks for your comment.

  • New Jerusalem 6 years ago

    To Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name... The new Jerusalem is also the bride of christ as is the city, I could say I am canadian, that ties me into the country... The people and land are one they are married... Even as Jacob's name was changed to Israel, even his 12 sons have their names as the Land... That which is passed is a shadow of what is now come, They are recognised as one... I have found with God there is a work, yet as we rest in Him, we have to come into agreement with the word and put on christ, by grace we are saved, yes, now lets go on by His enabling grace and also His sustaining grace for that better resurrection, That only those who are prepared as the Lambs wife(mature) without spot will enter in... many are called, few are chosen... Faith without works is dead, our works is to believe and to press into the things of God, even the mark of our high calling as it is written... For we are to wait on God every day for our heavenly manna, and only do as He instructs us to do, in and by His Spirit, For those that are lead by the spirit of God are the children of God, otherwise it is self works and will account for nothing... As we go from Faith to Faith, Glory to Glory we receive the hidden manna of God, yes deeper understanding that is written yet blinded to a one that has not reach that maturity yet, the Lord will open our eyes to see what we were blinded too, but until we came to the place of being mature enough for that strong meat, he will keep us blinded... Yes we have been born again that is our renewed spirit in us, even unto the 30 fold glory,(virgins without number) now we need to press in for a better prise, even the redemption of the flesh, and that can only be done as we rest in Jesus and Holy Spirit leads us into all truth as we mortify put (to death the deeds of the flesh) as we put on Christ... This is the work of the Holy Spirit for the bride, after she has been proven faithful, She is then seperated unto God for a work that only He can do, she is not the church at large who call themselves christian... She is the obedient, faithful one who sits at the feet of her Lord and doesn't do a thing that He does not instruct her to do... She calls him Lord even as Sarah calls Abraham Lord,(shadow) are we not Abraham's seed, the seed of faith... The wife is even more mature then the bride, we are completely devoted to Jesus... yet if you can't understand the bride, then I am surely not going into the Lambs wife... These truths can only be received by revelation, I guess that is why the book is called the revelation of Jesus... His is the I Am even the bridegroom, what good is a bridegroom without a bride... Now is the church at large the bride, NO! there is a seperation that take place even as Jesus seperated Peter, John and James to only reveal to them on the Mt. of transfiguration His Glory and they also witnessed Elijah and Moses... Why were the other excluded from that revelation... God is the potter it is He that takes cerain vessels and makes them fit for His good pleasure... Therefore, please do not come against those that God has revealed things too, for if the same had been revealed to you as even I have received, then you would know what we are saying when we can identify with the bride and wife, not by our own readings but by revelation on who Christ is to certain ones...

  • Debradoo profile image

    Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Wow, beautifully said CDA!! I am reminded of Psalm 46:10, Be still and know that I am God. And also of Psalm 127:1, Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

    Christianity is not just a matter of coming to know God. But also of coming to know the devil and our own human nature. Coming face to face with our own 'self'.

    Waiting on God (and staying in belief and faith, no matter our feelings) and trusting that we will hear from Him, is what the 'resting in God' is all about.

    It can be rather easy to get out there and build a church or witness to a neighbor or build a homeless shelter or visit the jails and hospitals and believe we do it for Him. But, to sit and wait on the Lord to guide us and direct us in our works (and to grow in patience and understanding while waiting) is the hard part. Trusting in Him completely and trusting in our ability to hear Him, this is the hardest of endeavors.

    Moving forward without hearing from God is too easy. Staying put until we are sure He has instructed us, this is tough.

  • BGisME profile image

    BGisME 6 years ago from CA.

    You have well written & quoted all the Truth here. I have always believed that about the bride: The Lamb's Wife. Blessings & His peace be with you, brother. BG

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Thank you BG!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    Thanks. An awesome comment. I believe that is why we "labor to enter into His rest."


  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Recently I had one of my readers tell me that they were the Holy Spirit. And she was dead serious.

    What tipped me off is that she couldn't spell.

    Seems to me the Holy Spirit would be able to spell. :)

    Two things I know; The Church is not a bride and that lady is not the Holy Spirit.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2).

    At that time, all believers will inhabit the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” in Revelation 21:2 and 10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

    As believers in Jesus Christ, we who are the bride of Christ wait with great anticipation for the day when we will be united with our Bridegroom. Until then, we remain faithful to Him and say with all the redeemed of the Lord, “Come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    I find it interesting that it is ok to quote the "adorned as a bride" line written by John and somehow twist that into the inhabitants of the city being the "bride of Christ" where it is clear that there is 1. NO "bride of Christ" term anywhere in the Bible, 2. God in the OT says he is married to the land, and 3. that it is CLEAR that John was shown the "Lamb's wife" (not any "bride of Christ") which is the Holy Jerusalem. If the Lord can marry land, He can marry a city if He wants to. How can we understand that? There are just some things we won't really understand. Part of the mystery of the Gospel.

    Also, I have said that our covenant relationship with God is LIKE or "AS" that of a marriage but I will not take the ridiculous leep to believing there is a legitimate doctrine of us being a "bride" to Jesus. Furthermore, the word says that we won't marry or be given in marriage in heaven.

    Thank you for your post but I couldn't agree less.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    Answer this question.... why would God marry only a city where there's no people in it? First, in Revelation 21:1,2 New Jerusalem is seen by John "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." I would like to point out the word "as" which shows a relation without stating that New Jerusalem is the bride. If it were a metaphor it would be different. THE CHURCH IS SUPPOSE TO BE PARTAKERS IN CHRIST GLORY. The redeemed and holy Church, washed by the Savior's blood, and obedient to his will as a faithful bride to her husband, is the new Jerusalem. So the city doesnt deserve such an honor without the inhabitants. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem. The glorified and heavenly Church, pure and beautiful as a bride prepared for the bridegroom. This chapter presents a vision of the final condition of the redeemed and triumphant church. The vision points out the contrast between the beginning and the final condition of our race. The career of man began in a garden, the fitting home of a race few in numbers. It ends, as revealed by the prophet, in a city, the home where multitudes gather. Of this city Jerusalem was a type. The redeemed and holy Church, washed by the Savior's blood, and obedient to his will as a faithful bride to her husband, is the new Jerusalem.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    Go up and read my hub in its entirety if you haven't already. You seem to be asking me questions that are quite well addressed in the text of this article as well as my responses to all of the comments..

    I have discussions covering the wedding analogies as well as a thourogh discussion of the Lord being married to the land in my answers.

    Also, I never said the New Jerusalem didn't have inhabitants.

    The bottom line is that the body of Christ can't be his bride also. The church is his body not his bride. Not only that there is no bride of Christ, only a Lamb's wife that is ever mentioned anywhere in the word.

  • Debradoo profile image

    Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Ok. It can be easy to understand how the church has come to see itself as the 'bride of Christ'.

    However, what is being overlooked is that a covenant is not always a marriage. Yes, a marriage is a covenant relationship. But a covenant relationship is not always a marriage.

    God made covenants with Noah and Abraham and others. These covenants required blood (as do the covenants of God).

    There were covenant relationships between many men throughout history. Many times the names were merged as well as blood being shed between men because of different talents and occupations. This does not mean they were married. There are handshakes and there is the toasting of beverages and there is signatures, etc. One or all of these actions can be done to seal the covenant in agreement and loyalty between parties.

    Marriage is instituted and recognized as a covenant relationship, but NOT THE ONLY covenant relationship. ALL covenant relationships require loyalty and dedication, not just marriage. Paul was looking for a way to help the church understand their covenant in 2 Cor. 11:2 and marriage was what he used to help the church understand a covenant relationship.

    So it seems that marriage is born out of a covenant relationship. A covenant relationship is not born out of marriage.

    We are definitely in a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. No questions about that. But not necessarily a marriage covenant. It is the COVENANT that makes us committed and faithful to Him, not the promise of marrying Him. A covenant IS the MOST intimate of all relationships and it does not have to involve a marriage ceremony of husband and wife or bride and groom.

  • Debradoo profile image

    Debradoo 6 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Ok .. scripture it is for you Joe..

    John 3:29 "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom, but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegrooms voice..."

    John the baptist considers himself a FRIEND or guest of the bridegroom, and not the bride.

    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (1 Cor.12:27) We are the BODY OF CHRIST.

    Mar 2:19 Jesus replied, "Can wedding guests fast while the groom is still with them? As long as they have the groom with them, they cannot fast. Even Jesus says we are the wedding guests (friends) of the bridegroom.

    And what about Matthew 22:1-13? Isn't this a parable about Jesus coming to offer salvation to the Jews? And they rejected His invitation, therefore He has called the gentiles as guests to the wedding? And doesn't Revelation 19:7-9 invite guests to the wedding of the marriage of the lamb? Are brides invited (guests)to their wedding? No, the guests are the invited.

    Rev. 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    Rev. 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

    Scripture CLEARLY states that the bride is the New Jerusalem.

    And concerning the parable of the ten virgins. Nowhere does the bible state that the virgins are to marry the bridegroom. Nowhere. These virgins are probably guests.

    Rev. 19:8 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb [Jesus] has come and His bride has made herself ready." It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Notice .. the righteous acts of the saints .. not the saints themselves.

    And what about Matthew 22:29&30? Isn't the Christian the resurrected that is spoken of here that will not marry?

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    The definition of a bride is one that is already newly married. We aren't married yet and, like I've said before, people aren't married or given in marriage in heaven.

    Debra is right. Not all covenants are marriage.

    Yes, we do have an intimate relationship with Jesus but it is that he is our Lord and the father is our daddy("...whereby we cry Abba, Father."). That is the intimacy that we have with Him and not that of the intimacy we have with our spouse. It is also how we have an inheritance.

    Furthermore, I find it offensive that those who believe that the church is the "bride of Christ" seem to believe that they have a deeper revelation than the rest of us in what this is all about than those of us who know that the church is the body of Christ and not some sort of bride.

    Sorry Joe, but the doctrine is wrong no matter how the lord has "revealed" it to you.


  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Also, in the OT, The Lord was speaking to the nation of Isreal. The church didn't come along until after Jesus ascended into heaven.

    God was NOT speaking to "the church" in Hosea and Jeremiah. There was no such thing then.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    John 3:29... john rejoiced of course. I never said john was the bride. Two things Christ pleads in defence of their not fasting.

    1. That it was not a season proper for that duty (v. 15): Can the children of the bride-chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? Observe, Christ's answer is so framed, as that it might sufficiently justify the practice of his own disciples, and yet not condemn the institution of John, or the practice of his disciples. When the Pharisees fomented this dispute, they hoped Christ would cast blame, either on his own disciples, or on John's, but he did neither. Note, When at any time we are unjustly censured, our care must be only to clear ourselves, not to recriminate, or throw dirt upon others; and such a variety may there be of circumstances, as may justify us in our practice, without condemning those that practise otherwise.

    Now his argument is taken from the common usage of joy and rejoicing during the continuance of marriage solemnities; when all instances of melancholy and sorrow are looked upon as improper and absurd, as it was at Samson's wedding, Judges 14:17. Now, (1.) The disciples of Christ were the children of the bride-chamber, invited to the wedding-feast, and welcome there; the disciples of the Pharisees were not so, but children of the bond-woman (Gal. 4:25, 31), continuing under a dispensation of darkness and terror. Note, The faithful followers of Christ, who have the Spirit of adoption, have a continual feast, while they who have the spirit of bondage and fear, cannot rejoice for joy, as other people, Hos. 9:1. (2.) The disciples of Christ had the bridegroom with them, which the disciples of John had not; their master was now cast into prison, and lay there in continual danger of his life, and therefore it was seasonable for them to fast often. Such a day would come upon the disciples of Christ, when the bridegroom should be taken from them, when they should be deprived of his bodily presence, and then should they fast. The thoughts of parting grieved them when he was going, Jn. 16:6. Tribulation and affliction befel them when he was gone, and gave them occasion of mourning and praying, that is, of religious fasting. Note, [1.] Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom of his Church, and his disciples are the children of the bride-chamber. Christ speaks of himself to John's disciples under this similitude, because that John had used it, when he called himself a friend of the bridegroom, Jn. 3:29. And if they would by this hint call to mind what their master then said, they would answer themselves. [2.] The condition of those who are the children of the bride-chamber is liable to many changes and alterations in this world; they sing of mercy and judgment. [3.] It is merry or melancholy with the children of the bride-chamber, according as they have more or less of the bridegroom's presence. When he is with them, the candle of God shines upon their head, and all is well; but when he is withdrawn, though but for a small moment, they are troubled, and walk heavily; the presence and nearness of the sun makes day and summer, his absence and distance, night and winter. Christ is all in all to the church's joy. [4.] Every duty is to be done in its proper season. See Eccles. 7:14; Jam. 5:13. There is a time to mourn and a time to laugh, to each of which we should accommodate ourselves, and bring forth fruit in due season. In fasts, regard is to be had to the methods of God's grace towards us; when he mourns to us, we must lament; and also to the dispensations of his providence concerning us; there are times when the Lord God calls to weeping and mourning; regard is likewise to be had to any special work before us, ch. 17:21; Acts 13:2.

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    Jesus only used the children of the bride chamber rejoicing analogy as an example of how it works. That is in no way a declaration that Jesus is the bridegroom of the church. Give me a break!

    Quit reading all that "bride of christ" garbage into the scriptures. It is just not there.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Why is all of this so important? Because the "bride/Christ" doctrine, by default teaches that when the "bride has made herself ready" then Jesus can marry her. Problem is is that this doctrine steals the doctrine of grace that Paul preached. The very revelation that is the whole of the Pauline Revelation!

    According to the Pauline Revelation, we have the gift of righteousness. God already sees us as perfect. And in that case, we are already ready.

    So, then it must be that it is someone else or something else that is gettting herself ready. Certianlly it is not the church as we are already ready as far as God is concerned, according to the Pauline Revelation.

    Nevertheless, if we have to get ourselves ready then we have to do works (isn't it the bride that has to get HERSELF ready?)... And if we have to do works to be ready then, according to Paul we put ourselves back under the curse of the law. But Christ was made a curse for us. He who knew no sin became sin for us. We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

    We are already ready Joe. And in fact, if we are already ready then we can't be the "bride of Christ"!

    This is the reason the church has to change its understanding of this doctrine. It is throwing the church into works and back under the law in order to "be ready"!

    It is essentially a denial of the work Jesus did on the cross for us~

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    FAITH is what pleases God. So, if I were the devil I'd try to do everything I could to keep Christians from living by grace through faith. This "bride of Christ" doctrine seems to do a pretty good job of it too! After all its got the majority of Christians trying to get themselves ready...

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    I never said we didn't have to accept Christ and repent. I haven't blocked your ip address either.

    Do you think the apostle Paul was ready? Yet he still said he had sin warring in his members. He also said that if we ask God to forgive us of our sins then He is quick to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness... Paul also wrote that His grace is sufficient. Do you think he was writing to the unsaved in those passages?. No, he was writing to the Christians. We cannot get the sin that is warring in our members out, only God can. It is by grace through faith that we are saved and not that of our own doing.

    We are already righteous even with all that sin warring in our members. There isn't a Christian that doesn't sin from time to time. That is what God's gift of righteousness is all about.

    I agree that we just can't get saved and then live worldly lives and expect His blessings. But because of His gift of grace, we Christians are already saved and ready.

    Therefore, we can't be the, "bride of Christ" as the "bride of Christ" is still getting HERSELF ready.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    Since my comments be ON topic why do you ease them? Its because they are the TRUTH. Why else would the poster of this site battle in the comments yet delete the comments that you dont agree with??? Let me post my comment and let the people decide. Im sure people have enough sense that they dont need you to make choices of what to believe. Even God gives free choice. As far as im concerned, your "HUBPAGE" is dead because you are BIAS

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    I am bias Joe. The church is not a bride. Rev. CLEARLY says that the Lamb's wife is the Holy Jerusalem. End of story. The church is the body of Christ not a bride.

    You are bias too. Everyone is bias. I consider it a compliment.

    There are many comments I don't post either because they ramble or it has already been discussed in previous posts.

    You also said that I talk about grace "sooo much". Of course I do. It is the whole of the Pauline Revelation and 100% of what the New Covenant is all about.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. PAY ATTENTION TO THE NEXT VERSE...

    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. --- End of verse. Wow, did God change the subject or did someone just misunderstand what He just said? You see clearly within the context of a woman, the bride, a city being spoken of, God immediately starts talking about group of people being the temple of God. He calls this city the “tabernacle of God” within the context that this tabernacle is a group of people. You can clearly see the implied meaning of the symbolic city as being a group of people who God indwells spiritually. This is so significant that I cannot even begin tell you.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    Furthermore, we are SAVED BY GRACE... but we must spiritually get ourselves ready. If we have hate in our hearts we are murderers by God's word. So we must repent for our sins(and ASK forgiveness). And repentance IS a change of mind. Now thats readiness. If you call that work so be it but its not manual labor to boast about. You speak of GRACE sooooo much but how many times do you speak of REPENTANCE...??? YOU DONT TIE IT IN.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    The "bride of Christ" doctrine proponants have essentially decided to "interpret" and stand on inferences they believe are in the Bible. That being the church is the "bride of Christ".

    But the word CLEARLY comes right out and shows us who the bride, the Lamb's wife is:

    Rev 21:9-10 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

    There's the proof that the "bride of Christ is the church" doctrine is wrong.

    They are finding themselves contradicting the obvious.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Joe you even a qoute the scripture that clearly states the the holy city is adorned AS a bride.

    Yes, it is ADORNED AS a bride but it is NOT the bride that it is adorned in. It is adorned in the righteousness of the saints. Just read on. That does not make the saints a bride.

    ...And then Revelations 21:9: reads that John is shown the "bride" the Lamb's wife which is the holy Jerusalem. Then it goes on to describe the city with its foundations.

    In the OT the Lord said he was married to the land of the Israelites. That being the case we can know that the Lord can be married to a city as well. Can we understand how that works? Probably not. But it does say the Lord was married to the land, why not a city too?

    I can show you where it CLEARLY says the bride, the Lamb's wife is the Holy Jerusalem but the proponents of the "bride of Christ" doctrine cannot demonstrate that the church is the "bride of Christ" anywhere in the scriptures. We are the body of Christ, NOT his bride.

    And once again, I never said we don't have to repent. There are none of us that are perfect or ever can be. That is why we have been given the gift of God's righteousness and we are already ready. God already sees us as perfect and ready through the blood of Jesus.

    The word tells us the bride is making herself ready. So then we can't be the "bride of Christ" since the body of Christ is already ready. It has to be someone or something else that is getting herself ready. It is the holy Jerusalem. Maybe that is the place the Lord went to prepare for us.

  • Joe 6 years ago

    I explained it already.... It is that God has two elect groups of individuals on this earth-Israel and the Church. Israel is the wife of Jehovah forever (Jeremiah 3:14; Hosea 2:19). The Church is the bride of Christ (Revelation 19:7). Romans 9 through 11 depict Israel's past (chapter 9), Israel's present (chapter 10), and Israel's future (chapter 11). During the Tribulation Hour, all Israel shall be saved (see Romans 11:26). The 144,000 Jewish evangelists (see Revelation 7:4-8) will proclaim the gospel of the kingdom to all the world (Matthew 24:14), and all Israel will accept Messiah (Christ) as Savior and King. Now these Israelites are the elect: "As touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes" (Romans 11:28). This solves the problem of Matthew 24:22, which states, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake [Israelites] those days shall be shortened."

  • Joe 6 years ago

    Posttribulationists vehemently cry: "You see, the elect are present for the judgments of the Tribulation Hour." Not so! The fact is that Jehovah chose or elected Israel to be His wife, and Christ chose or elected His people to be His bride, and it is the Father's elect wife experiencing the judgments mentioned in Revelation chapters 6-18.

    Concerning Israel, Deuteronomy 7:6 declares, "For thou art an holy people unto the lord thy God: the lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." This promise is perpetual. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [or change of mind]" (Romans 11:29). This is the reason that all Israel is going to be saved (v. 26). God keeps His covenants (v. 27), and Israelites are still the Father's "election" (see v. 28).

  • Joe 6 years ago

    To the Christians, Christ says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16). We were chosen "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4), and our choosing is eternal. Now there is no difficulty whatsoever when men see both elections, but confusion reigns when the two are intermingled, spiritualized, allegorized, and symbolized. Take God for what He states-literally-and the problems vanish.

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    First, Revelation 19:7 DOES NOT say the church is the bride:

    Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

    And as I have said, she has to get herself ready. The church doesn't as it is already ready...

    Later, in Rev. 21:9 it says who "the bride, the Lamb's wife" is. What is so hard about that?

    And if you take Revelation 21:9 literally the problem of you believing that the church is the bride also vanishes. It literally states: "...the bride, the Lamb's wife" is Holy Jerusalem, NOT THE CHURCH!

    Do you have a ministry that is founded on this doctrine? If so, I suppose that if you change your position on this you might have to shut it down.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho


    Rev 21:9 also says that the "bride" and "the Lamb's wife" are one in the same. That is; "...the holy Jerusalem...", not the church and not Israel.

    And Joe...

    It just struck me that you told me to take things literally...

    I quote you from your comment above,

    "but confusion reigns when the two are intermingled, spiritualized, allegorized, and symbolized. Take God for what He states-literally-and the problems vanish."

    You seriously wrote that?

    Nevertheless, at the same time, you have to "intermingle, spiritualize, allegorize, and symbolize" the scriptures to come up with and attempt to prove the "bride/Christ" doctrine.

    I find your comment amusing! Funny! Very funny!

  • Joe 6 years ago

    How created this doctrine you have?

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    The bride/Christ doctrine is just that, a doctrine.

    I didn't create the fact that Rev. 21:9 states that the bride, the Lamb's wife is the holy Jerusalem.

    That is no doctrine, it is a fact!

  • Joe 6 years ago

    Why is the word Lamb instead of Jesus? explain. Jesus is the "Lamb" or you could say referred as the "Lamb" because he died for sins. Why not Jesus wife?? Lamb was put there for a reason. The lamb takes away sins. So the "Lamb" marrying a city doesnt sit well with me. The Lamb/Jesus died for the church of believers.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    Seems strange but it is also strange that God said to Israel that He was married to their land in the OT.

    I have a coffee business here. Many cafe's already have decided on their espresso blend. It is almost impossible for me to get them to change. They are "married" to their brand in a sense. Why, they'd change spouses before they'd change their coffee. They have a commitment to it just like the Lord has commitment to in the blood covenant. He won't change that.

    I would compare our relationship to Jesus AS a marraige but in commitment and promises only. As I have pointed out in my article above, those comparisons are made but still, we are not his bride.

    As far as the Lamb? It comes right out and tells us that the Lamb of God is Jesus in scripture just as the word comes right out and tells us that the "...bride, the Lamb's wife" is holy Jerusalem.

  • Doug Lamb 6 years ago

    The terms the bride, wife, body of Christ and the church are all interchangeable! The marriage supper (Rev.19:7-9/21:2,9) is for the Lamb's wife.(the Bride) We are called a chaste virgin. (2 Cor. 11:2) To say that we are not "the Bride" is to "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" Mt.23:24 Doug Lamb

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    I am not straining at a gnat.

    Over half the church is freaked out that if they make one little mistake or sin or miss God in some way that they won't be ready to be "the Bride". They start living by works and NOT by grace (Galations). Unfortunately a primary teaching of the bride/Christ doctrine hinges on the fact that if the church is the "bride" then we have to get ourselves ready. But we can't get ourselves ready. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! We are not perfect and can never be ready aside from being made righteous through grace and not that of ourselves. The bride/Christ doctrine denies the abundance of grace in this issue. Therefore it becomes a primary issue and not a "straining at a gnat" as it appears to be on the surface of it.

    The problem the bride/Christ doctrine has is that if the church is the "bride" then the church has to get herself ready. I wonder what it is that we would have to do to get ready? Never sin? Always follow the spirit? Wear a bun hairdo? Wear long denim dresses and a bonnet? Never cuss, drink or smoke? Whatever it is that must be done to be ready will never be possible for everyone in the church to meet whatever those conditions are at the same time. It is just NOT possible! We are all at different points along the way in our lives in growing in Christ.

    Anyway, according to the word we are already righteous. We are already perfect in the Lord's eyes. That is the gift of grace. We are His body, not his “bride” and we are fitly joined together with him already.

    That means that the church CANNOT be the "bride". It has to be someone or something else...

    It is too bad what the translators did with 2 Cor 11:2. It has created a monumental misunderstanding of what our real position in Christ is.

    One Greek word for “espoused” is Strong's number 3423. It means to be “promised in marriage”. That is the word that was used to translate every occurrence of “espoused” found in the New Testament EXCEPT for the “espoused” in 2 Cor 11:2. The Greek word there is Strong's number 718. It means “to join joints together”.

    If Paul meant to say “promised in marriage” in 2 Cor 11:2 then he would have written the word for that instead of the word for “join”.

    For example: I am "joined" to and in agreement with my boss where I work, but I am not his bride.

    The 1st definition of the word “husband” (Strong's number 435) in 2 Cor 11:2 is “man” such as a caretaker of a vineyard.

    And as for “AS a chaste virgin”. That is a comparison that is made in this verse. It only means that Paul is saying his converts are “pure” and “sanctified” through the word he had taught them.

    So then, 2 Cor 11:2 should have been correctly translated from the Greek in this way:

    “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have joined you to one man who cares for you, that I may present you as pure and sanctified to Christ.”

    Maybe we are referred to AS a chaste virgin but that doesn't mean we are the "bride". That term just means we are washed clean by the blood of Christ.

    And Oh, BTW, those terms you mentioned? They cannot be used interchangeably. They do not mean the same thing.

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    I also want to add that Paul was writing to the church at Corinth. They had been pagans. In these letters, Paul was having to address the habits they had developed as pagans who worshipped more than one god .

    They had been worshipping more than one god and Paul in 2 Cor 11:2 was referring to that. He was making the point that they were now jointly fit together with one man (the Lord Jesus) now. He was jealous for them with a Godly jealousy in relation to them serving one master, the living God and not also serving the pagan idols as they were so prone to do.

    I also recall that God says He is a jealous God and will have no other gods before Him.

  • zbest profile image

    zbest 6 years ago

    I find your hub and research on this subject of great interest having thought along similar lines myself. Wouldn't the body of Christ have part in the marriage as the bridegroom not the bride also. I had also thought of Israel also as being the bride. Your point that it is the New Jerusalem is also a possibility. It always troubled me that the body of Christ would also be the bride of Christ.

    Good hub well thought out and researched

  • rob 6 years ago

    This has been very edifying. I agree, we are not the "bride"! I thank JESUS for His sacrifice, that I(we) am purified through His righteous Blood. Revelation 21 verses 9-10 clearly depict the Holy City New Jerusalem as the "LAMB'S Wife". All other teaching stretches, adds to or takes from, what the Word of GOD says. Also, remember we are all representing our LORD and Savior JESUS, so lets be at peace. We aren't supposed to be debating the Word of GOD anyway.

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    cdacoffee 6 years ago from Idaho

    What makes you think we aren't supposed to be debating the word? As I recall Jesus debated those old priest geezers in the temple back in his day...

    If I find a false doctrine such as this one, I won't hesitate debating it. If we don't want to get fooled again, we have to question every pastor's teachings against what the word of God really says.

    What happened in Jonestown, Africa is the result of people not questioning and debating.

  • The Saint 6 years ago

    why is it so hard to see the lamb the groom and his bride being a new city "Jerusalem".

    In Genesis God Yahweh the father begot Adam with the bride "the Garden of Eden".

    You may have overlooked it, but it right now in the end (Revelation)a city may seem a little crazy and wrong that the lamb is going to marry a city Jerusalem.

  • johnny 6 years ago

    The doctrine of grace that we have to do nothing I cant agree with this because of Phil 3.14. Also read Phil 2.12I believe that Jesus gives us the grace to serve him but we must have the attributes of Christ.Then we must do somthing why would all of these scriptures say to him that overcometh,Rev 2-7 2-17 2-26 3-5 3-12 3-21 21-7 also read what Paul wrote 1 Cor 9-27 . We must eat the whole book it will be sweet in your mouth but bitter in your belly. You must change and not be the same old slob you were born,Born in sin shapen in iniquity. Hope these scriptures help God bless

  • mcphil 5 years ago

    i think a good thing to keep in mind through all of this is that God is preeminent to us. when we think of God's nature, his role, our role, we must not use our understanding to define these before we consider that God's relationship with man is always before man's to God. this is similar to the whole "does God have a gender" question. Scripture attributes fatherly and motherly qualities to God. Does this make Him male, female, transgender, or whatever? of course not! before there was male or female, there was God. we can't apply rules given to us to God, it's circular logic.

    to clarify, i am NOT saying that God sins, does anything that if we were to do it would be sin but because it's God it's not sin, is male, female, both, neither, i'm really not making any claims, just trying to keep the perspective that God is preeminent.

    much love.

  • b  5 years ago

    Israel and the Church are on in the same. Israel represented the chosen people- set apart by God to be a witness to the world. It was through Israel that nations would know God. The Church is now 'Israel' We are chosen, set apart, to represent God to the world. It is our purpose to be salt and light...our purpose to bring out the God-colors in the world. The Church, just like Israel, is to make known the name of the Lord...I think we all have taken verses out of context- Rev. 21:9- the 'holy city of Jerusalem' refers to the new heaven. John is trying to convey that after Christ returns, God will make His dwelling among us. He will be in perfect relationship with us- His Church, His people, His Israel. Regardless of whether you see the Church as the bride or the body, its seeing it with value. For myself I like to consider the Church as the Bride, because its Christ is relationship. Its God chosing to be in union with us- the Church, his people. In Ephesians 5- Paul is trying to convey the holy union that is marriage- a precious relationship that needs tender, self-sacrificing care. So if some need to understand the importance and holiness of being in precious relationship with Christ by see the Bride as Christ, so be it. If in Rev. John is refering to the Bride as the new heaven so be it- its all about relationship! Christ and the Church, God and the Church in the new heaven (Holy Jerusalem) The point is that we are striving to live holy as God is holy- not through acts or deeds, but through personal, precious, self-sacrificing relationship with God our creator and taking that to the nations so that they too can experience that relationship. Regardless of how we interpret scripture, one thing is clear- Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength- and love your neighbor as yourself. The point is to love- to be in relationship... God in relationship with His people

  • Melissa7170 5 years ago

    I have heard from a certain teacher that those holding to "church as bride" doctrine will not be raptured because Jesus is coming for His body. This teacher says they will be left here during the tribulation. Do you see that in scripture as well, and if so could you tell me where? Also, this teacher is extremely staunch in her views... as we should be when we know something is true concerning God's Word. However, I'm a little perplexed by this teacher...she seems to have an extremely good knowledge of the Word of God, however she shows no signs of love. If you ask her questions and she feels you aren't agreeing with her she becomes impatient, unkind, touchy, resentful, and she speaks ill of almost every well known preacher...she says they all teach false doctrine as well as others like them. In fact, there isn't one that she said anything good about...they all have something wrong...I don't know where you could even go to church if you were to ask her and yet she seems to be extremely solid in her knowledge of the Word of God. How does someone get that type of revelation of God's Word and yet be so unloving toward people? I don't understand it.

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    I can't say what is in this woman's heart. Only she and God know but I can get a glimpse of what moght be there...

    The word says that if we don't have love we don't know God. God is the "Spirit of Love".

    Each of us has the love of God shed abroad in our hearts but we have to let it out and make a conscious effort to walk in love. It is something we have to grow in. If we don't learn to do that then we stay spiritual babies in the area of walking in love. Some say that is what makes us a carnal Christian.

    The word also says that by their fruits we will know them.

    As for her I can't say. But I can use these guidelines to protect myself and my family from people who don't seem to exhibit the love of God or have the fruit of the Spirit operating in their lives. I try to stay away from those who don't accept what I might have to say to help them be nice or to grow in love.

    Sounds like she needs to be confronted.

    Too many Christians speak ill of others. Doing that will rob you of Gods blessings. I used to do that but I stopped it. I remembered that I wasn't perfect and God still extended His grace to me. So, me extending grace to others is the very least I can do to others.

    As for her getting revelation? The Spirit of the Lord is in all of us and will bring us relvelation no matter where we happen to be in our walk with Him. Why wouldn't He? Its how we begin to understand the word so that we can mature in it. I think it is all because His love for all of us is unconditional.

    As for the rapture, I can say that just because a person believes that the Church is the bride dosen't mean they are not the body of Christ.

    But personally, I don't really give a flip. I'm either going or staying and what I believe about it won't change what God does. So, don't waste your time worrying about it. Just go out and tell somebody about the love of God...

  • Cat 5 years ago

    Im glad you all take into account that the Bible wasn't actually put together till 300 years after the church was formed.

  • Leal Souvenier 5 years ago

    The phrase "the bride of Christ" is not in the Bible verbatim. It is in the Bible, though, and it is no figurative term for Jerusalem, either. Rev. 21 says the "new" Jerusalem will come from Heaven adorned for her husband. In this new city, God dwells among men with no tabernacle. There are only two instances where this occurs: when Jesus was among men and when God is in the church. The chapter goes on to describe that Christ makes all things new. There's the new Jerusalem (or we could easily say Christ's hometown, figuratively). Christ makes things new through the church whether it's our newness of life in the church through grace or whether it's the new home He's given us in the church (aka, His home, or New Jerusalem).

    If it couldn't be said that this was the bride, the chapter goes on to be more specific. After Christ says who will no be allowed into this city, an angel offers John to look at "the wife of the Lamb" (or the bride of Christ). After a poetic description, it is given the same description in verse 22 as it has in verse 3, where the tabernacle or temple is not in this city, or , "the wife of the Lamb", "as a bride adorned for her husband."

    It's strange to say that the church isn't the bride would be a strange fact to introduce into the Bible, given that the only way one can be cleansed is through the church as we enter it and surrender to God's will. It's the only way to be readied as the word describes. It can't be Jerulsalem, as the state God created as Israel is no longer in existence. We saw it in complete disarray and disrepair in all of the prophets through the new testament as the pharisees, sadducees and others tried to keep the old state's laws alive. It simply isn't a valid argument nor is it a ploy by some religious org. such as the Catholic group.

    The phrase the bride of Christ is no inferrence, it's the phrse used. The church in Isaiah 58 is the daughter of Zion, not by birth as we see in Revelation, but by marriage to the Lamb.

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    I find it strange to introduce into the bible the idea that the church is the "bride of Christ" when the Bible is quite clear that the church is the body of Christ.

    Furthermore, we are not cleansed by entering the church. The Bible states we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and that we are purged by the Word of God.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    Additionally, I did not say it was a PLOY devised by the Catholic church. I said the term was first COINED by the Catholic Church.

    Yet still, the term "the Bride of Christ" is not in the Bible. It is only taken to be implied that it is there by some of it readers.

  • Fiona Rumble 5 years ago

    I believe that the bride preparing herself for the wedding is the act of sharing the Gospel and making new disciples. Then when the bride is ready (that is "when the fullness of the gentiles has come in")Jesus will return for His bride (the Church of true believers) who has been made spotless because she has the righteousness of Christ. We cannot make ourselves ready as individual brides, but by faithfully sharing the Gospel we can help to make the Church complete and therefore the "bride" ready.

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    I believe it is the Holy Jerusalem (the Lamb's wife or we can call it "the Bride") is being prepared for the body of Christ. Jesus himself said he was going to heaven to prepare a place for us. I see it as the Holy Jerusalem is what he is preparing.

  • Bskilton 5 years ago

    I believe that an open mind must be attained whenever entering into a discussion. First and foremost, to deny fully that the church has any bride-like responsibilities is the deny Ephesians, whereby Christ is describe as the groom, inferring that we have some obligation to submit to christ, as a wife submits to her husband. This act of submitting is the reason for the church being described as the bride, not because we are necasarily litteraly the bride rather we must submit to Christ as a bride. In reference being ready, Jesus, when talking about the end times, is reffering to a thief in the night, and how we must "be ready". "Being Ready" does not mean doing deeds, it refers to the entering of a lov relationship with God, and the building of that relationship. It is therefore our duty to tell the world about such a relationship, so that they may also "be ready". Lastly, your aversion to good deeds contradicts to the very nature of faith. "Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith through what I do" infers that they come hand in hand. Deeds do not save us, only faith, but having a genuine faith should enact us to do things, if we have a faith we should be doing things for God's Glory.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho


    Thank you for you thoughts.

    Early in this hub I did say this:

    "The apostle, by using a simile instead of a metaphor is desiring to show the resemblance between the marriage relationship and Christ and the Church. Paul points to the love relationship to demonstrate that "as Christ loved the Church," husbands should love their wives. In like manner, wives are to emulate the Church by submitting to their own husbands. Nowhere in the portion under consideration does the apostle use the metaphor of a bride. In fact, just the opposite is true: ". . . and He is the Savior of the BODY" (vs. 23). "For we are members of His BODY, of His flesh, and of His bones" (vs. 30)."

    So then, I agree. I don't deny a certian covenant relatinship with God is sort of like the ones we have with our spouses. But we are still not Jesus' bride.

    Also, Ephesians doesn't say Christ is the groom of the church. In fact it makes it a point of stating in verse 30 of Ephesians Chapter 5 that we are members of his body and his flesh. Therefore, if anything is true, it is the church that is the groom since we are of his body and are of his flesh.

    Also, I wrote this:

    "The apostle, by using a simile instead of a metaphor is desiring to show the resemblance between the marriage relationship and Christ and the Church. Paul points to the love relationship to demonstrate that "as Christ loved the Church," husbands should love their wives. In like manner, wives are to emulate the Church by submitting to their own husbands. Nowhere in the portion under consideration does the apostle use the metaphor of a bride. In fact, just the opposite is true: ". . . and He is the Savior of the BODY" (vs. 23). "For we are members of His BODY, of His flesh, and of His bones" (vs. 30)."

    And as for "showing my faith", Paul is saying that good works are a result of the faith and love that resides in the inside. If I have that then the works and love will follow. They will be a fruit of our lives in him. I don't purpose to do right and good works in order to develop my faith. They develop from the inside out. It isn't the works that develop my faith but the faith that develops the works.

  • I.L. Givemynamewhenyougiveyours 5 years ago

    First, there is no such thing as a "doctrine" of the church as the bride of Christ. Just as there is no "doctrine" of Jesus as a vine, or bread, or a door. Still, these are metaphors that occur in scripture in order for us to fully understand what Christ, in His word want us to know.

    I'm curious who you think, in your arrogance, it is incumbant upon to "prove" anything to you.

    This blog is proof that any moron with a laptop can call himself a theologian.

  • I.L. 5 years ago

    Please disregard that last post. It was unkind and I regret it. Please forgive me.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    I accept your apology. It is easy for any of us to be upset when we hear of comcepts we don't necessarily agree with.

    Although I would like to respond to your comment.

    Just as with the bride of Christ similies, so are "Jesus as a vine, or bread, or a door". Those also are similies.

    Is Jesus a vine? No. Is Jesus bread? No. Is Jesus a door? No. Is the body of Christ a bride? No.

    Thanks for your comment. You inadvertantly supported my points about similies.

    And as for me being a moron with a laptop. I have to admit that there is a good chance that I am since I still have a PC rather than a MacBook!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    All of what I am attempting to define is our true position in Christ through my challenging the "bride of Christ" teaching.

    I agree that we do have a relationdship with God that can be likened to a spouse because God deeply loves us with all of His heart as sons and He, through Jesus has entered into a covenant relationship that includes His promises to us of sending the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, promises of salvation, protection, blessing, healing and so on and so forth but this still in no way verifies that the body of Christ is His bride.

    Please notice that in the verses you quote from Corinthians that Paul writes, " I promised you AS a pure bride to one husband—Christ.". He does NOT write that his converts ARE the bride. It is about the covenant relationship that we have with him and not our actual position that he have IN Him as being the body of Christ.

    God is the "husbandman" of the church (the body of Christ) in the definition relating to a "husbandman" of a vineyard. Jesus, in fact, told us that He is the vine and we are the branches and not His bride.

    I believe that since we are the body of Christ, most likely, we have our position in the bridegroom and not the bride.

  • graceinus 5 years ago

    After reading your above artical relating to The Bride of Christ, I have to addmit that I had to gave it a lot of thought. In all my years of bible study I believe too that the Bride of Christ is the Church. But now your artical above does give me a moment of pause. You do back up your claim in scripture.

    I guess what I'm most surprised about is that you are correct in stating No where in that bible does it state Bride of Christ. This is truely an eye opener for me and helped reinforce my belief that religion in general is corrupted by satan. But I strongly believe in a relationship with God and our Lord Jesus Christ through His word the bible. I know I have received the Lord's Grace through Faith and without it we are all lost.

    Through deep study and revelation through the Holiy Spirit, I have come to understand that to enter the Kindom of God you must have understanding of Grace through faith. As noted in Mathew 6:33 which states: Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His rightisness...

    I believe the fastest way to loose any chance of entering the Kingdom of God is to join any religion on earth.

    To all who may read my comment I recommend you trust the word of God in your Holy Bible and only the Holiy bible.

    Thank you (cdacoffee) for that small bite of light.

  • kj 5 years ago

    So where in the bible did you find that we don´t have to be baptized anymore?

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho



    Baptism is not any part of this discussion. I never said we're not to be baptized anymore.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    Is baptism good and important? Yes. Should the Christian be baptized? Yes, but it is not necessary for salvation. If it is then we are saved by works and not by grace through faith.

    Even Jesus got baptized. Jesus was saved before he got baptized since he had never sinned. But he got baptized anyway. So then, it is important but not necessary for salvation.

    Baptism is only an outward expression of the inward circumcision of the heart. Baptism is nothing more than that and to elevate to a position where it is REQUIRED for salvation makes Christianity just another religion of works.

  • kj 5 years ago

    I am sorry, maybe I should have explaned myself better, I have only recently started to read the Bible and I just wanted to ask you where in the Bible it is written that it is not necessary to be baptized for salvation.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    kj, I am assuming you are directing your comment to me. Without stepping on any one's toes I would like to reply to your comment regarding Baptism.

    First, I would recommend Baptism to anyone who has repented; has accepted Jesus Chirst as their saver and believes that Jesus Chirst is the son of God.

    Second, You do not have to join a religion to be Baptised,and it still can be done. Most people believe that in order to be Baptised you have to be in some form of a Christian religion. If it is true that you have to be in a religion, then tell me what religion was John the Baptist. Baptism requires baptism in water and in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holiy Spirit as noted in Mathew 28:19.

    I also want to make one final point regarding Baptism. No one should think that a Baptism is a relationship to or a commitment to any particular christian religion. This is a mistake that far to many so called Christians make. Many believe their Baptism is into a particular christian religion and that is not true.

    A true Baptism should happen only once in a person's life and should Baptism be done it should never be taken lightly. Baptiam is a step in your relationship with God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    But alway remmeber one thing, whether your Baptised or not, God will not pass judgement on your actions. His judgement will be decied on what is in your heart. That is why Grace through Faith is far more important than Baptism itself.

    I recommend you read the Books of Romans and Hebrews in the NT. (You might want to read them more than once. Understanding these Books is not easy if you are new in reading the Bible. Trust in the Holiy Spirit, He will guide you through it, that is what He's for.

    I wish you the best.

    P.S. By the way, I was Baptised many years ago.

  • kj 5 years ago

    Thank you for you´re advice, you have taken away the doubts that I had regarding to getting Baptized. I will read the Books of Romans and Hebrews NT. And yes from what I had already read in the Bible I understand that the Bible is a book that you can best read several times in orde to really understand it.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    kj, please read Titus 2.11 in your Bible regarding Salvation.

    It states" For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

  • Tom 5 years ago

    I don't know - but I'm glad you're saved by God by Grace through Faith.

    And I'm thankful to be a Church saint ... an "in Christ one"... Eph 2:7 that he (Father) might display in the coming ages (plural) the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us IN Christ Jesus.

    A common mistake people make is that they think God is treating all saints in God's program the same. We "in Christ ones" have a different content of salvation.

    I don't know if the Church becomes the Bride but it is worth looking into now that you point it out. I thought Rev 19 was looking back at the point where the Church had been spoken clean in an utterance, by the Son (implying a grace gift)... not "made herself" ready (implying works). Anyway interesting post.

    And the water baptism for salvation thread... if we have to do something other than the work of Christ to get saved or stay saved... someone better explain the cross.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the specific ONLY gospel for salvation.

    1) Christ died FOR OUR SINS, according to the Scriptures

    Proof. He was buried

    2) Christ rose again the third day, according to the scriptures.

    Proof: He was seen by over 500, most of whom were alive at the writing of 1 Corinthians.

    That is the single gospel, by which, anyone can be saved.

    ...unless you believe in vain... (eike = "without a reason/purpose")

    The "reason/purpose" for which you believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again ... is "for" salvation from the penalty of sins.

    Believing anything else for salvation from the penalty of sins, adds to the work of Christ, and will prevent an individual's salvation, every time.

    Thanks for your insight. Now I have something to look into! Cool post.

  • Bonnie 5 years ago

    I came across your article a couple of days ago while doing a google search on the "Bride of Christ" and have read it and all of the ensuing comments with great interest. Thank you for your work and all the time you have spent replying to the comments. I have been challenged by what you have written, cdacoffee, and at the same time I think "thou dost protest TOO much".

    I am sure there are some groups out there that use the concept of the "Bride of Christ" to justify their pushing good works as necessary for the second coming of Christ, but it appears to me that you are assuming that most of the church which believes they are the "Bride of Christ" are depending on their works to save them, that they have to DO something to get ready. Although I have accepted the bride of Christ concept for the majority of my Christian life (the better part of 40 years), I have never believed that there is anything I have to DO (as far as good works) to get myself ready for Christ's return except cooperate with Him as He saves, washes and sanctifies me. The righteousness that I possess is the righteousness of Christ, not my own (of which I have absolutely none). I am, however, responsible for "putting on Christ", putting on His robe of righteousness. This I DO by faith. It is an act of faith towards HIS grace. not my works. I think there is a distinction to be made between "an act/work of faith" and "works" when it coming to DOING something to being "made ready". Christ does not force us to be clothed with His righteousness, we must accept it willingly, putting it on, and in so doing, we are "doing" something, but this is not salvation by works. As an act of faith, it is not a dependence on our own righteousness that saves us, but a choosing. I PREPARE myself by CHOOSING to accept His righteousness and then His work of sanctification in me, but this act of choosing is not works, it is my faith in action.

    After reading everything written here, I think Doug Lamb makes a good point in saying: "The terms the bride, wife, body of Christ and the church are all interchangeable! The marriage supper (Rev.19:7-9/21:2,9) is for the Lamb's wife.(the Bride) We are called a chaste virgin. (2 Cor. 11:2) To say that we are not "the Bride" is to "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" Mt.23:24 Doug Lamb".

    Scripture uses many different comparisons, similes, metaphors, etc. for both Israel in the OT(including a wife, and a harlot and a wild ass in heat in Jeremiah 2) and the church in the NT. By the way, I believe they are two different entities, which when Christ saves the remnant of Israel (along with those previously born again Jews), will be the one Wife, represented by the New Jerusalem which is inhabited by all of the Redeemed. The New Jerusalem is not only a place, but a place of the Redeemed. The term encompasses both, just as New York is both a location and the group of people residing in it.

    The idea that Christ can't marry His own body is merely an assumption on your part. IT also cannot be proven by Scripture, so this is an argument from silence. Even the concept of "Christ's body" is a metaphor, for we are not literally Christ's body, we are His spiritual body. The Ephesians 5 passage says that marriage is a picture of Christ and the church (verse 32). The church as a body and Christ as its head, likewise, is only a picture of Christ and the church. We are given these pictures of what our relationship to Christ is to be like, but the one does not cancel out the other. It is not a question of "either/or" but of "both/and". Just because you accept the one, doesn't mean you have to reject the other. They are both just pictures of a spiritual relationship, and neither of them are perfect, but they do help us to understand.

    When it comes to the creation account, God gave Eve to Adam, who was created out of Adam's OWN body, and then the two became ONE flesh again (not literally, although they reproduced to create one flesh). Likewise, the church exists because Christ layed down His life, sacrificing His own body for our redemption and creation. The church was born, or made out, of Christ's body in a spiritual sense. This idea that Christ cannot marry His own body is just as much of a stretch as saying that He can. In fact, the argument is irrelevant, because it is only symbolic either way you look at it. These are only earthly (and temporary) metaphors given to us for our spiritual understanding of things eternal which are unseen. They are different ways of understanding the different aspects of our relationship with Christ. In fact, I have no problem being known both as the body and bride of Christ. Both pictures exist in Scripture, even though the term "bride of Christ" may not exist as such.

    I want to know why you use the "Abba, Father" argument against those who believe they are symbolically the Bride of Christ. This term is referring to our relationship with the Father and not with the Son and can just as easily be used to argue for what you are protesting about. I call my husband's father "Dad" because I am married to his son. My husband's father is not my spouse, he is my father (in law). My husband is my spouse and because of this relationship I have the privilege of calling his father "Dad". This does not mean I do not have a husband, and I do not call my husband "Dad" (although I realize there are wives that do this around their children, which I believe is to their own detriment because it creates confusion). The problem I have with you bringing this in is that it doesn't validate your argument. Just because Jesus is also called my "brother" which is makes God my Father, but it doesn't mean that I am divine also. That would be a stretch. Any comparative picture can be taken too far. And so can the picture of the bride of Christ. We must be careful not to do this, no matter what the picture is.

    It seems to me that any picture of our relationship with Christ can be taken to the extreme. I have experienced an instance in what I considered to be a spiritually solid church in which, while referring to the body of Christ during a communion service, it was taken so literally that the focus was placed on the church body rather than on the Christ the head during the service, because they failed to acknowledge the the body is a picture of the church and not a literal part of Christ Himself. They changed the focus from Christ to the body, inferring that the body is Christ just as much as the Head is. This only happened once, but there is always this danger, no matter what the picture, and we must constantly be aware that these pictures are given only to help us understand a spiritual concept. Christ Himself must always be our focus, not the pictures which help us to understand the nature of our relationship.

    On this basis, I will continue to consider myself a part of the Bride of Christ, "espoused" to my one Husband, and observe the symbol of this covenant in the "Lord's supper". I will continue to see Christ as my Savior, Redeemer and Brother, my Head, the Bread of Life and Living Water, the Vine, and all of the other pictures given to us in His Word. None of these are wrong. But we must remember it is Christ Himself that is important. I don't think it is necessary to create a doctrine around any of these pictures, either for or against. The doctrines about God as Creator, Christ's divinity and salvific work, justification by faith, the nature of Scripture, etc are those doctrines of which we depend on for our spiritual stability, not the various temporal pictures given to those who have already taken hold of salvation to help them understand the nature of a relationship with Christ they already possess by faith. We are not saved by our views on the timing of the rapture, the second coming or how we view our relationship with Christ (these pictures can all be applied, and some more so than others at various times in our lives). These may cause some spiritual confusion, and there is no reason to avoid discussing them, but this is not what determines where we will spend eternity.

    I pray that we will be careful not to allow these types of issues to become

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    Thank you Bonnie for your comment.

    You are probably right that I "protest too much". It does seem to be a trivial subject on the face of it.

    After years and years of hearing people preach that the chuch, as the bride, has to get herself ready I became weary of the teaching that so grates at my spirit and what I know Jesus did for us on the cross ("...a new and better covenant"). So, I finally had to write about the subject from what I understand as the free gift of grace and the free gift of righteousness since. That means the church is already ready.

    My real concern is that believers tend to think that they have to do something to get ready as a result of this teaching. The Pauline revelation teaches no such thing. In fact Paul, in Galations called people who try to get themselves ready fools. He also goes on to write that doing works puts us back under the law and therefore back under the curse of the law. As I see it, the bride teaching supports works.

    Nevertheless, I just want believers, particularly new believers, to understand the weekness in believing we, as the bride, have to get OURSELVES ready.

    Perhaps I do "protest too much" but in so doing, I emphasize the point of the whole of the Pauline revelation. That is, the we are saved by grace and not that of ourselves.

    The church is already ready and we can expect the return of Jesus at anytime from now on.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    cdacoffee, maybe the following information will help settle this issue of the Bride of Christ is not the Church.

    But before I lead into to it I think I should mention that I do understand why so many have argued this point. Ii wasn't until I read your artical a week or so ago that it help me to get a much better understanding on this issue. And I believe I am on a much better track.

    In most of the parables that Jesus Chirst used in his teachings He discribes the Kingdom of God. This is why He mentions in Matthew 6:33 But Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and all these things will be added to you. It is my believe that ihis is the most important statement in the entire bible. First, because He tells mankind what our primary focus should be which is the Kingdom and second, it's through righteousness we may enter his Kingdom. Although Jesus did not state the word Grace in this sentince, it is throught His Grace that we recieve His righteousness.

    As Jesus died on the cross, He took whith Him the sins of all mankind. Not just some of us, not just for the believers, not just for the Jews, but for ALL mankind. In exchange for taking all our sins, He then extended or offered Grace to All mankind. It is from this point on we in the Christian faith begin to confuse things. Some who believe in Grace think that Grace alone is what saves us. That is only partly true. The rest if it is Grace through Faith. It states in Titus 2:11 For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. However, we must recieve his Grace by believing we recieved it ; this part is Faith.

    I will use this example: I am standing in front of an audience of 25 people. I then reach into my pocket and take out 25 dollars in 1 dollar bills. This 25 dollars represents Grace. Now I tell the audience that I'm offering 1 dollar to all 25 persons. The audience is not sure what is going on and some don't care for the 1 dollar. However, 5 people in the audience believed that I would really give it to them so they stood up and came up to me and recieves from me 1 dollar each. This is faith. Now, I offered the dollar (Grace) to all 25 individuals but onty 5 believed (Faith) and recieved it. This is Grace though Faith. Grace is a Gift from God that has appeared to all men. I want to point out that faith is not works.

    That is why you see in some of Jesus's parables toward the end where it say's "Many are called but few are chosen as in Matthew 20:16 and Matthew 22:20. In Matthew 22:2 where Jesus discribes the parable of The Kingdom of God is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son. The parable discribes a wedding taking place and guest are invited. But all who were initially invited (the Jews)for different reasons would not come. ( I don't believe that in this parable that Jesus was discribing the Bride of Christ) I believe what Jesus was trying to explaining in this parable is that the Wedding Garment was or is Grace through faith. Because He continues to discrbe inviting the bad and good (Gentiles)in verse 10 of the parable ( How can you invit the bad without Grace). Toward the end of the parable it is mentioned that a person who was present at the wedding who did not have a Wedding Garment. Again, I believe this wedding garment is Grace through Faith. Needless to say this man was not allowed to stay.

    At the very end of this parable it is stated; For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14.

    I have noticed that some have used the parable I mentioned above to prove the bride of Christ issue. But, if one takes a look at the parable and see with their heart, they will see the Grace of God. Not the Bride of Christ as the church.

    Note: Many are called(Grace), but few are chosen (Faith).

    As christians, we should all come to understand an important point. Grace is what God shows towards man and Faith is what man shows towards God. So in the end we have Salvation.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    To further my point I made 8 days ago in my comment regarding Grace through faith, I recommend reading Rev 17:14 which states, These shall make war with the LAMB, and the LAMB shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings: and they that are with Him are Called, and Chosen; and Faithful.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    Thank you cdacoffee

  • Sherrel 5 years ago

    Thank you for this teaching. My husband and I read it together. Very insightful. We tend to agree with your understanding.

  • ixthus12 5 years ago

    read 2 corinthians 11:2 paul was concerned with presenting the church of Corinth to one husband and that is Christ, as a pure virgin. you see the only ting the church as to do to get ready is to believe until the end. in contrast to being a seed planted in bad soil. As john said they went our from us to prove they never belonged to us. As it says in Romans 8 that the world is groaning waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. So the teaching of the Church as the bride of Christ doesn't change the fact that we are saved by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    It makes me wonder why there are those of us who believe in the unity of the body of Christ, but will be the first to stand there to argue and debate the word of God amoung each other. Think about it.

    Shouldn't that give us all a moment of pause.

    If we truely want answers to the many mysteries in God's word wouldn't it first be best for all of us to seek the wisdom and understanding of His word through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Unity in the body of Christ can not be maintianed through arguements and debates, but only through wisdom and understanding. Once we have accomplished this, then we have true unity. Because until this happens, it won't matter if we are the Bride of Christ or not.

  • Pastor Mike 5 years ago

    I am a Christian. I am a child of God. I am a son of God. Jesus was the firstborn among many brothers. I am one of those brothers. God is my father. I am part of the body of Christ. I am an heir of God and a joint heir of Christ Jesus. One day I will enter into the bride with Christ. Yes, I will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with Jesus. So shall I ever be with the Lord.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    ELR, I did read the link you refered to regarding Mr. Ariel Fruchtenbaum. I will not argue or debate the bride of Chirst issue. But I will make this one comment. The word of God goes far deeper any even he realizes. Because if he had understood Rev 20: 5-10 he would have never written that link. And if you understood Rev 20:5-10 you would know what I mean. His position as scholar, auther, speaker, etc hold no value to me. And I could care less.

    The problem we have as christian today is that to many believe that the word of God is left to ones interpretation and this was never intended to be the case. Read 2 Peter 1:20 which states: knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.

    We need to understand God's word, not interpretate it.

    And that is the problem we have today in the christian faith, the lack of understanding. When you begin to see and hear with your heart, then you will begain to understand. And that this the problem Mr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum has.

    As I stated in my earler comment, wisdom and understanding of God's word can only come through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    Interpretation will always leave room for error, understanding does not.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    I wish to make one more point regarding Mr. Ariel Fruchtenbaum's link where he stands on the bride of Christ issue. And I do beleive that every one in this Hub has failed to mention. There has already been a large resurrection of the saints immedately following the resurrection of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago. If you don't believe me then read Matthew 27:52,53 which states:

    and the graves were opened: and many of the saints who have fallen asleep were reaised: and coming out of there graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

    So please, if you can, tell me where do you think they fit in to the Bride of Christ plan.

    Even Mr. Fruchtenbaum in his link makes no mention of these people. And yet these people who had died and are SAINTS are mentioned in God's Word. Also note that no where else in the bible are they mentioned.

    Why this has never been brought up before is unknown to me. It seems to me that this fact is something that mainstream christians ignore or don't care. Or it's not brought up at the pulpit because it don't fit their doctrine.

    We need to understand.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    I wish to correct my above comment were I quoted Matthew 27:52,53 it states in the NKJV:

    and the graves were opened;and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised: and coming out of graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

    I should also clairify something else I wrote " Also note that no where else in the bible are they mentioned" (want to add) that I'm aware of at this time. It could be through more study that there is new revelation that I am not yet aware of.

  • Andreas Hecht 5 years ago

    If we are the bride of Christ, than we have no right to use the name of Jesus.

    But, because WE ARE the body of Christ, we are allowed to used that powerfull name!

  • Andreas Hecht profile image

    Andreas Hecht 5 years ago

    But because WE ARE the body of Christ, we are allowed to use that powerfull name.

    By the way:

    The body of Christ is always mentioned male and multiple, the bride of the Lamb is always female and singular.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    God's holy Word, the bible, this one of the greates gift's that mankind has ever received. And yet, of all the books printed by man, it is the bible that is the least understood. And yet it has been sold more than any other book on earth. The bible tell mankind our history and our future. It is God's revelation to mankind of his Kingdom.

    If we see and hear with our heart it will reveal to us the main subject of this book is His Kingdom from the beginning of Genesis to the last words of Revelations. And between it's pages it also contains some of the greates mysteries on earth. Mysteries that many of us try to explain or understand.

    Because this book has been passed on to us through God's Holy Spirit, it is safe to assume that it will take true spiritual wisdom to understand what God wants revealed to us.

    What is clear to me is that for whatever reason humanity plays an important role in God's Kingdom. For reasons only He knows, we will share that Kingdom.

    Those of us who read the pages of His Word are searching for asnwers to questions that can not be found anywhere else. In many case's God's Word seems to causes more questions than they seem to answers. As a result we lose focus of the main subject of the bible which is God's Kingdom. And we begin to focus on the questions that we seek answers too.

    I beleive the main purpose of Juses Christ's ministery on earth was and is to re-adjust our focus back to the Kingdom of God. Not to argue over issues like the Bride of Christ, 144,000, the Antichrist, the Two Witnesses, the Raptrue or anything else. That is not to say that we should not seek answers to these questions. But in doing so we should not lose focus on His Kingdom. And it is possible to do both.

    In the ministery of Juses Christ, his primary focus at that time was the Kingdom of God and His Righteouness.... as we find in Matthew 6:33. He wants mankind to shift our sights back to the Kingdom which is the main subject of God's Word.

    What I have discovered during my studies and revelations received through the Holy Spirit, is that as you begin to understand the Kingdom of God and His Grace, you will begin to understand why there is a Old and New Testiment. And the part each plays in God's Kingdom. And the book of Revelation becomes much more clear to us.

    The bible has made it very clear the importants God has placed on the human heart. And how much understanding of God's Word is depended on it. Without it we will never know the Kingdom of God.

    Once a person opens his heart to the Word of God he or she will receive understanding.

    For those of us who our new in the Word, I believe the best way to explain bible understanding or revelation through the Holy Spirit is to put it this way:

    To know, without knowing how or why.

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    Deidre Shelden 5 years ago from Texas, USA

    I'm so grateful to have found this hub article! I'm preparing to lead a study on the book of Revelation and have concluded a key to understanding it is knowing the Jewish marriage customs and who/what is Christ's bride in Rev 21:9. It clearly does not look to be the Church. When you remind us here of many passages and, in particular, Is. 62:1-4, this nails it for me that Zion/Jerusalem is God/Christ's bride. He is jealous over Jerusalem. Christ wept for her. So many things come together. Countries are punished with natural disasters even when they push to divide the city. It is the apple of God's eye. Clarifying this is what I think will clarify for me who the actual players are in the book of Revelation. Thanks *so* much for posting this!

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    Debradoo 5 years ago from Cocoa, Florida

    Ixthus ..

    Rev. 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

    A city can put on the fine linen, as this verse clearly has shown.

    And acts of righteousness can be legal or moral obligation that is fulfilled and it brings about social stability and peace.

    CDA took nothing out of context. As a matter of fact, he has one of the most in-depth coverages of the Bible, concerning the Bride of Christ doctrine. And he has certainly done his best to 'rightly divide the Word of God', which is something absent from the bride of Christ doctrine that is being taught today.

  • Ms Dee profile image

    Deidre Shelden 5 years ago from Texas, USA

    I'm glad to see these further posts after mine above. I found out some more about the Jewish traditional customs which has now reversed my thoughts on who the bride of Christ actually is in Rev 19, and am glad to see these other posts countering my first one, and lxthus12's comments confirm this further with some excellent points. I was forgetting the first marriage covenant with God was broken (Heb 8:9), and the new covenant is one of the Spirit (Jer 31:31), which includes both Jew and Gentile believers who become the bride of the new covenant.

  • ixthus12 5 years ago

    in Revelation 18:16 it is not the city that is clothed in fine linen but it is in reference to the people of the city whom God is charging with idolatry and every kind of immorality. And yes Ms Dee isaiah 54 says that God was a husband to Israel and in Jeremiah 3 God divorced Israel and took a new Bride and that is the Church. The city of New Jerusalem is the home of the new bride.

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    Deidre Shelden 5 years ago from Texas, USA

    Right, and what, ixthus12, is to become of Israel? It too are brought to repentance, in the end, right? Do you think there scriptures say there is a separate, specific resurrection for newly repentant Israel? I've read that recently and am trying to find where in the scriptures they get that from.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    Ms Dee

    I am sure you will find some that will disagree with me, but the nation of Isreal will be resurrected. However not according to what most people think. If you read the book of Ezkiel Chapters 37, 38 and 39 you will see how it line up with Rev, 20: 5-10. Most believe that the Nation of Isreal will somehow be part of or related in some way with the first resurrection but that is not the case. The so called bride of Christ doctrine don't apply. After the so-called millinimum. In the second resurrection is where Ezkiel 37,38, 39 will take place. If you study it carefully you will see how it falls into place.

    This also fits in with the Book of Daniel Chapters 9, 10, 11, and 12.

    If you study also the parables in Matthew 19:30 and 20:1-16 where it states in verse 16: So the last will be frist and the frist last.

    Jesus was refering to the Old Covenant (Nation of Isreal) and the New Covenant (Saints). This applies to the first and second resurrection.

    Most mainstream christians believe the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven right after the Millinum. But that is not the case. Frist God will raise up the Nation of Isreal, they will live in peace for a time,but it will not last.

    Following these events as noted in Rev 20:9-10 then God will set up his Throne to pass final judgement. Then after will the New Jerusalem come down from heaven in all it's glory as it is explained in Chapter 21 of Rev.

    I wish you the best is your studies

    Many may disagree with this, and I'm not her to argue the point. But I hope this will help you in you in your staudies of the book of Revelations.

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho


    You are forgetting one thing. The SIMPLE truth. You guys can go look at all the marriage covenants etc., etc., in the Old Testament and New but the SIMPLE truth is that the Holy Jerusalem is the Lamb's wife. Rev 21:9. This is not out of context. If the Church were the Lamb's wife then that angel would have show him "the Church", not the Holy Jerusalem.

    And the clothing of righteousness is that of the Saints. And THAT righteousness is a gift given to the Body of Christ through the NEW COVENANT. This covenant is not a marriage covenant but a covenent to His sons, the body of Christ.

    The Church is not the "bride of Christ" and we cannot get OURSELVES ready as we are ALREADY ready.

  • Ms Dee profile image

    Deidre Shelden 5 years ago from Texas, USA

    Dear gracinus, I would like to see you write a hub on what you say is so clear. What I see as clear is just before God's wrath is poured out, 144,000 from the tribes of Israel will be sealed so not to be harmed and be redeemed from the earth and kept pure, to follow the Lamb wherever he goes. So maybe you can do write a hub about how this fits in?

    Yes, there is Satan's final deception of the nations who are burnt before he is then thrown into the Lake of Fire all happening before the dead are judged and the new Jerusalem comes down from God. I do see that :). Thanks for your best wishes on my studies!

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    MS Dee

    Thank you for your comment, but I have no interest of writing my own Hub. However, I will give you my best answer on the 144,000.

    The 144,000 are only mentioned twice in the entire bible, both reference about them are located in the book of Revelations. The first time is in Rev 7:5-8 and the second time in Rev 14:1.

    No where in the entire bible is there a direct statement that the 144,000 are saints. Where there is no doubt, God has identified them as special group of people from the twelve tribs of Isreal. And no doubt they will be in God's Kingdom.

    Jesus Christ states in John 10:16, And other sheep I have who are not of this fold; them also I must bring and they will hear my voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    I have no doubt that Jesus was tell the diciples that the 144,000 will be joined together with the saints. What Jesus does not reveal in the above verse is when this will accure. But this I do know, both Saints and the 144,000 will be in the New Jerusalem.

    Many doctrines have built on who is the 144,000 and the simple fact is only God knows who each one are and when they are reserrected.

    I would like to make one more off comment. If you take a very close look at something that most people pay no attention too. In Rev 20:12 God raises a group people from the dead and passes judgement. Then in Rev 20:13 God raises another group of people from the dead and passes judgement on them. These are two seperate resurrections and judgements. Most christians don't see this. But it's there.

    It is for these and other reason why I believe cdscoffee is on the right track when he says The bride of Christ is not the Church. As I had mentioned in another comment in this Hub, then word of God goes far deeper than most christians realize.

    My best wish to you MS Dee.

  • Ixthus12 5 years ago

    When Jesus says in Matthew 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin ! Woe to you, Bethsaida ! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in ? sackcloth and ashes . Was He speaking to cities or the people who live in them? Of course He was speaking to people. He was not pronouncing judgment on buildings, and stones and trees for not recognizing the coming of the Messiah, but against the people who live in those cities. Just like the new Jerusalem, Jesus is bringing down the city of His new bride. He is not marrying a city, but the people who will dwell in that city. For as you can see from Scripture that a reference to certain cities and towns were references to the people who live in the cities themselves.

    To Ms. Dee I believe there is one resurrection of the just and one of the unjust. Acts 24:15. So I believe the Bible teaches that all Saints, Old Testament and New shall be resurrected. Whether this will be in one part or two the Scriptures do not tell us. But we do know from Romans 9-11. Israel, at least it's spiritual leaders and the nation as a whole, were cut off so the Gentiles could be grafted in by our God so that salvation would not be offered to Israel only but to the whole world, of which the Church is comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia


    I will mention thhis only once in this Hub, not just for your benifit but for any one who may read this. People can do what they want with it, so I will try to make it as clear as I can. Most Christions do not understand Rev 20:5-10 and how much impact it will have on the Nation of Isreal and the complete resurrection of Isreal. So I would ask that you read Ezekiel 37:38:39: and see how it fits into Rev 20:5-10 And it fits also in Daniel 9:10:11:12. The problem is most people are blinded by religion to see what I am talking about. There is a resurrection of the Saints before the so called millininum and another right after the millinimum for Isreal. The second resurrection will involve the entire nation of Isreal. Once this has taken it's course, Then there will be two more resurrections as noted in Rev: 20:12,13. I don't expect you to take my word for it, so I would encourge you and any reader of this comment to take the time to read it carefully. But before you do I would hope that you open you heart to the Lord and ask him for wisdom understanding each time before you start to read. This is something I do before my three hours of study EVERY DAY for the past 10 years. And I don't let religion get in my way. The Holy Spirit will guide you through it. There is far more involved regarding these resurrections than most christian seem to understand. For example there was a large resurrection of Saints immedately after Jesus Christ resurrection as mentioned in Matthew 27:52,25. No one seem to teach on that one. (I don't think you have any comment on that one do you? If you do I would like to hear it.) This is just a few of the reason why this bride of Christ doctrine is in error. And cdacoffee has spent so much time and effort trying to bring this to light. He has the courage to stand up against those who push a doctrine that is in error. He has my total support.

    Christions need to understand God's word and not just interpretate it. Jesus Christ states in Matthew 13:14,15

    And in them the prophecy is fulfiled which says: Hearing you will hear and shall not UNDERSTAND. And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the HEARTS of the people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their HEARTS and turn, so that I may heal them.

    In the verses I mention above Jesus was refering to a parable in which he was describs the Kingdom of God. Which is what the ENTIRE bible is all about.

    Christions today are blinded and to focused by religion and the doctrine they teach. Christion today are spoon fed the bible by someone else and in doing so they have forgotton how to read and study the word of God for themselves. After stairing at the man (woman) behind the pulpit for an hour they go home feeling good that they've completed their christian duty for the week. I hope you are not one of these. And that you(and others) will take the time to study the references I made above.

    I want you to know lxthus12 that I do not question your faith and love for the Lord. I'm sure you have much knowledge of God's word. But I can see just by your comments that you are member of some religion out there. And that fine with with me, your have that right.

    One other thing, the part where the Nation of Isreal is cut off and the Gentiels are grafted on. The UNDERSTANDING of that is; The end of the old covenant and Christ death on the cross started the new covenant. The Nation of Isreal being cut off goes far deeper than you realise, Because Isreal will no longer be cut off when you understand Rev 20: 5-10. (Their resurrection)

    In any case lxthus12, I do wish you the best.

  • grafted-in 5 years ago

    Ms Dee, just looking at the Hebrews text 8:9. I have the Aramic English New Testament and it doesn't say that it was broken, it just says He rejected them, because they had not continued in His covenant.

  • grafted-in 5 years ago

    Chapter 19 talks about a marriage: And after these things (woo-hoo)Babylon getting the heck beat our of her-that fake city that tried to be Jerusalem)I heard a great Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God.:

    They continue to say that true and righteous are His judgments for He had judged the great whore. . .

    Then is heard a voice from the throne (v. 5) and then a voice of a great multitude praising God (v. 6)

    Then the voices say, Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath mader herself ready.

    And to her it was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

    v. 9, And he saith unto me, Write, blessed are they which are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Who is the her in verse 8? The bride or they that were invited to the marriage supper?

    I am thinking that the she is the bride and she is righteous, but she is Jerusalem, and versie 9 are those that are blessed to come to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

  • Felipe Rios 5 years ago

    Thank you Brother! My brethren struggle with this doctrine all the time because they do not yield to the teaching that the bride is the City and not a people. Not only that but when you compared the Great Harlot of Revelation 17 you find out in verse 18 that the Harlot (woman) is the great city (prob. Rome). Grammatically, the bride can only be the New Jerusalem because of the context and the grammar in ch.19 and 21.

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho


    Seriously? He can't marry a city? In Hosea God says that he is married to the land so why not a city?

    Just because we can't understand, that doesn't mean He can't do it...

    His ways are not our ways... His ways are higher than our ways... That means we probably won't understand a few things of what God does. That is the mystery of the Gospel pal.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia


    I believe that in many of your comments you have made it very clear that the Bride of Christ doctrine is in error. And you have provided strong evidence in the New Testament scriptrues that support the argument that the Bride of Christ is not the church. Reqardless of your strong evidence supported by NT scriptrues, it seems to me that others will continue to use OT scriptrues in support of the Bride of Christ is the Church doctrine. What makes this most difficult is that the Book of Revelation does not make direct differances in Old Testament and New Testament prophecy. In order to understand both would require guidence from the Holy Spirit. Where the problem continues in the Book of Revelations is how people interprete this book as a whole. Many allow religon to(unknowingly) misguide them and interprete the Book of Revelations for them. And therefore you have doctrine that is in error. I myself do not have a 100% understanding of this book,but I will not allow religon to enterprete the bible for me.

    Clearly, the old and new Testament should be treated seperate as we should the two Covenants.

    As I'm sure you are aware there is a big difference between the old and new covenant. And there lies the problem for many people how they tend to over lap or combind these two covenants. I see no evidence within the Old Testament (Old Covenant)on how the Bride of Christ doctrine can be supported. I believe that you will continue to receive arguments for and against the Bride of Christ is not the Church for as long as people continue to combind the two Covenants and leave the bible for enterpretation. I have made my point in earlier comments that the bible was never intened to be enterpretated, but clearly we must receive understanding. And I believe there is a big difference between to two. When we enterprete scriptrue we leave room for mistakes. And this is why I believe that the Bride of Christ is the Church doctrine in in error. What many may believe to be understanding is in fact enterpretation. What also does not help is when religon enforces or provides this wrong doctrine to begin with.

    I do support your points you've made in all of your comments on this issue, but I do wonder how long are you willing to repeat yourself to those who just don't seem to want to UNDERSTAND.

    My best to you.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    I think the Bride of Christ is not the Church a subject that will continue to be argued or debated until we are all blue in the face. But it is a subject that seems to be a major issue for many of us. I believe where we have a problem is not so much the Bride of Christ so much, but more of the idea what we define as CHURCH. I believe this word (Church) is very misused and is one of our greatest problems in the word of God.

    The very first time the word church is mentioned in the bible is when Jesus is talking to Peter in Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) where Jesus states: And I also say to youPeter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

    Then Jesus continues in verse 19 where Jesus states: And I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what ever you loose on earth will be losed in heaven.

    I think for many, this is where the problem lies. The way christians associate the word CHURCH with the word KINGDOM. The last time the word Churches is used is again spoken by Jesus Christ in Revelations 22:16. (Read it for youself).

    The word Kingdom has nothing to do with the word Church by definition. But it is based on the Church that Christ built, that those persons are and will be part of the Kingdom of God.

    I believe the Kingdom of God needs to be more clearly understood. Because it does have an impact on the Bride of Christ issue.

    God being the creater of all things seen and unseen without doubt makes Him king. Nothing is above God. Therefore His rulership as King is without question. What many don't realize or understand is that whatever God commands becomes LAW. A command from God should never be violated. In other words a Kings statement is a Command. If one does not follow through with a command from God, he/she voilates a LAW. Again, a Kings word is LAW. If we read Genesis 2:16,17 you will note that it says: And the Lord God COMMANDED the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Mankind has been living and dying ever since because is LAW.

    Because God is King of all things he may and can establish LAW where and to whom He whats too. Which brings me to the Old Covenants which God established with the Nation of Isreal through Moses. The Old Covenant was CONDITIONAL which many fail to understand. I direct your attention to Exodus 19:5,6 where it states: Now therefore, IF (notice the word IF)you will indeed obey my voice (command)and keep my covenant, THEN you will be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is mine. 6) And you shall be to me a KINGDOM of priests and a holy nation.

    What most don't understand is that the ENTIRE covenat became LAW. Not just the 10 Commandments, but the ENTIRE covenant. Because they were or became a KINGDOM and a KINGDOM must have LAWS. The Nation of Isreal did not become a CHURCH then and they are not a CHURCH now.

    You will note that only LAW can enforce any covenant (Testament). Through time the nation of Isreal broke the Covenant God had with them (they broke the LAW). As a result of breaking God covenant, God divorced Mimself from the Nation of Isreal. Note: when one has a divorce it involves LAW.

    God said he would make a new Covenant with the House of Isreal.This new Covenant (LAW) was established when our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross.

    Note the following passage in Matthew 28:18, 19, 20 which states:

    And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying," And ALL AUTHORITY has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I HAVE COMMANDED you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age".

    In these verses Jesus informed the disciples that all authority (power) has been given to him. This makes Him King. (But not above God) Based on his kingship He is able to speake commands. Based on His death and resurrection the New Covenant (LAW) has been established. (Which is a new LAW)

    Understanding that both the Old and New Covenants are both Laws, it helps to undersand God's Kingdom to have a better understanding of the Book of Revelations. And to understand that ANY command or commandment spoken by God and Jesus Christ is a LAW.

    This is why mankind fall short if we want to enter God's Kingdom based on our own merits and without Christ as our saviour.

    The Church that Jesus talked to Peter about, are those who Christ has identified as citizians of the Kingdom of God. That is what define church. The Church is not religion. Jesus never built a religion. Jesus built (identified)His citizians for the Kingdom of God.

    To state that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Isreal are or make up the Church is not scriptual. And to say that they are the Bride of Christ is also not scriptual. The 144,000 are and always will be a part of God's Kingdom and never a or part of a church if the word church indicates or implies religion.

    Most most of the comments noted before mine implies that the Bride of Chirst is the Church as a religion and it's their religion who are the elect or chosen ones. There doctrine then implies that their Church is the Bride of Christ. If this is the case then the why does Jesus state in Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all his righteosness... In His ministry Jesus never mentioned that His Church is or would be any religion.

    One final point: The women described in Rev. 12 and Rev. 17 and 18 are not CHURCHES. They are KINGDOMS

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia


    First, I do not try and interpretate God word. A person will receive revelation and understandingGod through the Holy Spirit of God's word or he/she won't.

    Second, regarding the Church as the "Called Out Ones. These "called out ones" ARE THOSE WHO ARE CITIZIANS OF GOD'S KINGDOM in case that wasn't clear to you.

    Third, if revelation is given to someone through the Holy Spirit, how then can it be out of context.

    Fourth, there are many revelations in the Book of Revelation. So peardon me for placing a S at the end.

    This entire Bride of Christ is/is not the Church is a very good example of enterpretation vs. understanding. If people would just allow the Holy Spirit to truely guide them through God's word, then there would be nothing to argue or debate. There is no doubt that some are wrong and some are right on this issue and many others. The understanding of God's word will always be found in our hearts, because it's through our hearts that God speaks to us. And it's through the heart we receive understanding, not enterpretation.

    God does use people like cdacoffe, who I believe is guided by the Holy Spirit, to bring to light true teachings and understanding, however it is also the responsibility of each of us who hear the word, and allow the Holy Spirit to determine if the teaching from cdacoffee (or anyone else) is right or wrong. If cdacoffe is wrong, the Holy Spirit will tell you. If cdacoffee is right, then the Holy Spirit will tell you. In my case I meditated on the word for a week or so after reading this HUB and asked for guidence from God on the Bride of Christ issue as cdacoffee explained through scriptrue. Once I received the answer in my heart, then I had no doubt that cdacoffee is right. So what it boils down to is this, that if God said it, then that settles it.

  • Ixthus 5 years ago

    First of all revelation has been given to the people thst God called to write the Bible. If you have been given revelation then it needs to be included in the Bible. We, the Church, have been given illumination to understand God's word. Only prophets and revelators have been given revelation. No scripture is of private interpretation. We have been given God's Spirit to help us understand the revelation that has already been given among many other things according to John 16.

  • Ixthus 5 years ago

    It is easy to take things out of context when you don't know the context. And not eveyone has been given the Spiritual gift of discernment, knowlege and teaching. Just read Romans 12 and 1Corinthians 12

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    Oh! So let me get this straight Ixthus... You have the corner on the spiritual gift of discernment...

    There actually is no such thing as "The Spiritual Gift of Discernment". But there is a "gift of the discerning of spirits". The "gift of the discerning of spirits" is the gift administered by the Holy Spirit to allow, as necessary, a Christian to actually see, with the naked eye, a spirit such as an angle or a demon or Jesus etc.

    The Bible was not just given to the Christian but mostly to the lost in order that they may be saved and grow in the word. The lost have no ability to understand the things of God in a spiritual way so, the Bible was written to speak clearly to the lost so that they might be sable to understand. If we think that God had it written in some sort of a mystical code that only the saved could understand then that kind of a God would be especially cruel.

    That is why the Bible has to be taken literally unless it specifically indicates otherwise such as when it says, "here is a parable".

    So then, once again, I have to point out that Revelations clearly says that "The Holy Jerusalem" is the Lamb's WIFE! And Yes, God can marry the land and/or a city. You just gotta understand what "marry" means dude.

  • Ixthus 5 years ago

    No i don't believe i only have discernment. And it os the ability to ne able to distinguish what kind of spirit redides within a person. Whether it be evil or not. Resd 1Cor 2:14 and it tells us that a natural man, an unsaved person who doesn't have the Holy Spirit, can't understand God's word. He needs to hear the gospel and believe and be born again and recieve God's Spirit then he will be able to comprehend the Bible and grow. The word of God is a dtumbling block to the Jew, foolishness to the gentile, but to us who are saved it is the power of God.

    I apologize if i worded things in an offensive way before, and will try, by the grace of God, to speak the truth in love.

    Saved in Christ alone,

    Anthony Jones

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    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho


    Thank you for your clarification of your heart in the matter.

    Nevertheless the word says that no one can know what is in the heart of a man except for God and the man himself.

    Take Daved for instance. He murdered but God also said he had a heart after Himself. Go figure... (Just an example to make us think).

    Anyway, the saints who lived during the dispensation of the law (The Old Testament; Abraham, etc.) were not born again (no one could be born again until Jesus was raised from the dead, not even the disciples.) but they were able to understand the word of God. So, your position that no one can understand the word of God unless they are saved is bogus.

    I prefer to believe that the word is quite understandable by whoever decides to read it whether born again or not.

    But all of this is really irrelevent to my article about the church not being the Bride of Christ. I am born again and I can easily understand that Reveletaion is quite clear that it states that the Holy Jerusalem is the "bride, the lamb's wife". That passage in Revelation can be understood by the saved or the lost. So then your argument that a person has to be born again to understand that that passage doesen't mean what it says is irrational. Seriously? I have the strongest evidence that the church is not the "bride of Christ" in Revelation but most of the born again can't discern that the word of God means what it says and it says what it means.

  • David 5 years ago

    CDA, I want to say thank you so much for posting this. It helps me bring light to those who are being taught that we are "the new Jerusalem,or the bride" It states clearly several times we are the body. To me the body is a saved person, a christian. The bride is Israel. Along side of this is the teachings that we have to preach the word to all nations to prepare them for the return of Jesus. How can we do that now. From my understanding in Revelations when it speaks of the word being spread to all nations it is done near the end of the tribulation. After the rapture. The rapture is the spiritual return of Jesus to take the saved to Heaven. After this has happened some 3 and a half to 4 years into the tribulation the anti-christ will be shown and everyone will follow him until the end of the 7 yrs. when Jesus will return in flesh and that shall be the day of judgement for all. That is the shortened version, but in general thats what i understand and take from the bible. Alot of people bypass the rapture completely and say that the physical return of Jesus is the real rapture. Once again I would like to say thank you for posting this.

  • Pastor Rick 5 years ago

    Thank you very much. I have been holding to this as the teaching that the Church is the bride of Christ keeps us from accomplishing what we need to accomplish as the Body of Christ and it diminishes the power and authority we have been given in Christ, by Christ. Again, thanks!!

  • DaveNJ 5 years ago

    Isn't the spiritual Jerusalem or new Jerusalem often a reference to the church?

    A verse that may add support to the "Jerusalem is the Bride" point of view is Galatians 4:26.

    Neither position seems totally convincing to me.

  • graceinus 5 years ago


    I have read Galatians 4:26 as you had mentioned in your comment. I believe it's refering to the heavenly Jerusalem above as being the mother of us all. I don't think this supports the idea that the Church is the Bride of Christ or that the New Jerusalem is the church.

    As cdacoffee has mentioned many times the Bride is the New Jerusalem as mentioned in Rev: 21: 9-10. There are many who imply that the church is or will become the New Jerusalem, but no where in the bible will you find this.

    I believe that the word church is what it causing us most of our problems in th body of Christ. And in doing so we (christians) have built doctrines and many different religions as a result.

    If one reads Matt. 16:18 thru 19 ,where Jesus is speaking, which states:

    18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not pervail agains it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

    With these words I believe what Jesus was explaining to Peter that from that point on Christ Jesus would begin identifing those who are citizen in the Kingdom of God.

    If you will note in Phillippians 3: 20-21 it states:

    For our citizenship IS IN HEAVEN, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Ctrist,21 who will transform our lowly body, according to the workings by which He is anble even to subdue all things to Himself.

    In these words you will note that it states: For our citizenship is in heaven. Those who are the church are citizen of the heavenly Kingdom.

    Based on these words I believe those who are citizen are the Church. And have the Keys to the Kingdom of God as Jesus stated in Matthew. These Keys unlock the the mysteries of Grace through Faith, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, understanding of God's Kingdom along with many other mysteries.

    If we come to understand that the church as a whole are those who are citizens,it will allow us to understand that the church are those who are citizen that will be in the new Jerusalem when it comes down from heaven.

    Based on this I believe the body of Christ (church/citizens) will be with Christ and his bride the New Jerusalem once it comes down from heaven.

    It must be understood that Christ Church is not a religion. And Jesus did not establish a religion. He establish His Church, which is not religion.

    Even in the OT times, the nation of Isreal was not religion. They where a Kindom, the High Preist were those who were to enforce God's Law (Covenant). The Priest were not enforcing a religion, the were to enforce the Kingdom of Isreal's Laws given to them by God.

    And still many believe that the Church (as a religion) is the Nation of Israel and the Bride of Christ.

    The was a time in the OT (Covenant) when God was the Husband to Nation of Isreal. However it also explains in the OT the God divorced himself from Isreal due to her becoming a Harlot.

    I am not implying that the Nation of Isreal will have no part in the New Jerusalem. As a matter of fact it is evident that a least (and more likely even more) who are the 144,000 will have a part in the New Jerusalem. But this does not mean they (church) are the Bride of Christ? No, I don't see anything in scriptrue that say they are.

    I will close by asking this one question to anyone who can answer it. If the twevle Tribe's of Isreal is the Bride of Christ, then why is the tribe of Dan not part of the 144,000? Read Rev 7: 5 thru 9 and you will see the Tribe of Dan IS NOT listed.

  • graceinus 5 years ago from those of the Ekklesia


    I hope the following will be understood by those who will take the time to read it with an open heart.

    I believe this will help others to understand what you have tried so hard to explain that the Bride of Christ is not the church. I hope this will also re-enforce the understanding that there is nothing we can do to earn our way into God's Kingdon, but it's only by Grace through Faith. And that the parable of the Ten Virgins has nothing to do with the "Bride of Christ is the Church doctrine" many religions teach.

    As you have mentioned in your Hub that many religion have used the parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25:1 thru 13 to explain or that it is related to the Bride of Chirst is the Church. You explain that this parable is taken out of context, which I believe you are correct. I believe the following will explain this parable of the Ten Virgins that Jesus Christ used.

    First , it is important to undersatnd that all mankind is under God's Grace which was given to us by Jesus through his death on the cross, which is clearly explained in Titus 2:11 which states: For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

    This verse above clearly states that Grace has been offered to all mankind. However to obtained salvation through Grace we must receive it by Faith. In other words Faith is the oil and Grace is the Lamp. One is not good without the other. They are the Lamp and Oil of our salvation.

    Jesus used this parable of the Ten Virgins to explain this point of Grace through Faith.

    Matthew 25: 1thru 13 states: Then the Kingdom of God shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the Bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.3 Those who were foolish took their lamp and took no oil with them.,4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.5 But while the Bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight a cry was heard; Behold, the Bridegroom is coming; go out and meet him! 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 But the wise answered and said,'No, list these shall not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sale,and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the Bridegroom came, and those who where ready went in with him to the wedding, and the door was shut.11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said,'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

    What Jesus is saying is this:

    There are ten virgins who have the knowledge of Grace which is represented by the Lamps, five of these virgins have Grace through Faith, which is represented by the extra oil vessels they brought with the Lamps.

    The five foolish virgins have not the understanding of Faith (oil vessels) and it's relatioship with Grace (lamp). So they had only their lamps.

    Jesus Christ is represented by the Bridegroom and the ten virgin knows his arrival is soon but the exact time is not known.

    Suddenly, in the middle of the night the Bridegroom is returning, which represent Christ return to earth. Realizing there lamps (Grace was ending) were going out, the five foolish virgins learned from the five wise virgins they need more oil (faith) for their Lamps (Grace.)So they departed to find more oil. And all who were ready, already having Grace through Faith, were then received by Jesus Christ and leave. Those virgins who remained behind who had went and bought more oil missed their chance to go to the wedding and are now left behind. They allowed their lamps to go out. They had there chance of Grace through Faith and lost it.

    When the five foolish virgins knocked on the door to be let in, Jesus told them " I don't know you" . Basicly He's saying it's to late. You had the chance to understand: In other words if you didn't understand Grace through Faith before I came, you won't get the chance after.

    Had these five foolish virgins brought oil vessels with their lamps, then there would have been Ten wise Virgins at the wedding.

    This is why Jesus said in Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day or the hour, in which the Son of Man is coming.

    There has been so much arguing and debate relating to the Bride of Christ doctrine. If one reads and understand the minestry of Jesus they will see that most parables relate to the Kingdom of God. Nothing in the above parable relates to the Bride of Christ.

    As cdacoffee has explained many times, there is nothing we can do to get ourselves ready. It through the blood of Christ that we are cleansed of our sins. His loving Grace (Lamp) has been given to us and if we are wise virgins we will have Faith (Oil).

    Please read Ephesians 2:8 which states:

    For by Grace you have been saved through Faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, least anyone should boast.

    To all who read this many blessing to you.

    Thank you cdacoffee for your blessing.

  • Ixthus 5 years ago


    I didn't say they had to be saved but that they could only know and speak the truth by the Holy Spirit. John chapter 14 and chapter 16. But even though they were not born again as we are in the New Testament time Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day and saw it and was glad. When Abraham died he went to paradise not torment. So did he belong to God? Yes! Was he saved in the future expectation of the Christ? Yes! Jesus said it as stated above. And you are still rationalizing and not listening to Scripture. A natural man recieves not the things of God because they are Spiritually appraised. As far as the Church not being the bride of Christ because you believe those who hold to that interpretation believe we are saved by good works is bogus as well. I believe we are born again only by the grace of God through faith in the person and work of Jesus our God and Savior and I believe the Church is the bride of Christ. The passage in Revelation that says the Bride must make herself ready is not referring to the Church earning her salvation but exercising faith in Jesus. The passage about the ten virgins is in reference to those being ready by being filled with the Spirit of God. It is common knowledge that oil is symbolic to the anointing of God's Spirit upon a person. Even in the Old Testament people were indwelt by the Spirit of God. That is how David could pray, "take not thy Spirit from me O' God" I have to go but I would very much like to discuss this with you further. If you would care to because I believe iron does sharpen iron and two brothers in the Lord could help each other grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 5 years ago from Idaho

    Thanks Ixthus,

    First of all, I don't believe that those who believe that the church is the bride of Christ believe they are saved by works. I believe they do understand grace and have applied it to their lives for salvation.

    Nevertheless, in Galations Paul confronts them about their works. That is the issuse I have with the bride of Christ doctrine. I think that it leaves many with the impression that we, as Christians have to do something to be ready.

    And as for your discussion about the oil, I'll address that when I have more time.


  • Buck Cronkite 5 years ago

    This was real good, brother. Thank you for the time/effort that undoubtedly went into this piece. I derived much from it, and it has only made me more appreciative of the grace in which I, we, stand. Peace.

  • BJade 5 years ago

    Good Morning! I did a personal study a few months ago on this subject..and I came up with the same conclusion as you...I was glad to come across your article this morning because "The Bride of Christ" doctrine has been taught greatly in the ministry I am associated with.. And I was looking to see if others had done the same study as I did, and if so what did they come up with...your article confirmed to me what was revealed to me in my study...what made me do this study was I question all things and I take nothing that man says at face value...only the word of God in context which is revealed by His Spirit...Thank You for sharing...Blessings!

  • Rich Prickitt 5 years ago

    Are you Brother cdacoffee?

    Thank you for your scholarship on this matter.

    In the O.T., God's people were the CHILDREN of Israel. In the N.T. we are SONS of God. (I capiitalized "SONS" for emphasis.)

    In 2 Corinthians 11:2, the Apostle Paul wishes he could, but laments he cannot espouse the rebellious faction in the church at Corinth AS a chaste virgin to Christ. But Paul does not present anything to Christ - except himself a living sacrifice, just as any Christian should.

    In Ephesians 5:27, "...that He might present to Himself a glorious Church, Which is His Body. NOWHERE, in Scripture does a man present his wife to himself. This goes all the way back to Genesis 2:22.

    In Revelation 19:8, the bride is arrayed in fine linen clean & white, which is the righteouness of the saints. Which saints? ALL the saints of ALL the ages that are in heaven by the occasion of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And what are we told time after time? God is No Respecter of persons! So what makes anyone think that it's the Church that is the bride?

    Jesus does not attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. He arrives in 19:11. In 19:14, the armies in heaven FOLLOWED Jesus upon white horses, "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" to go forth to judge and make war. Sound like a bride to you?

    I have four Scripture passages that state the Church is Christ's Body of Which He is the Head: 1 Cor. 12:27; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; & Colossians 1:24.

    In Revelation 21:2, Christ's Bride comes down OUT of heaven FROM God - Jesus' Father (and my Father, too), prepared AS a bride adorned for HER husband. 21:9 "...Come hither, I will shew thee the Bride, the Lamb's wife." 21:10 "...and shewed me that great CITY, the HOLY JERUSALEM, descending OUT of heaven FROM God. 21:11 "Having the glory of God: and HER light was like..."

    ALSO, the Apostle Paul assigned feminine gender to the "Jerusalem that is above" as being the mother of us all (Galatians 4:26).

    Moreover, Jesus enlisted me to be a good soldier enduring hardness (2 Timothy 2:3-4). In Ephesians 6:11-17, Paul lists the armor and the weaponry, with which we are to "put on."

    Jesus is my Brother: We have the same Father. Further, Jesus makes me a king and a priest.

    I have written 60,000 words on this very topic - the point being to free the "traditional" thinking Christian, so he or she can be all he/she can be in Christ and for Him. Too many Christians are confused about being militant - but walking in love and in the Spirit - or about being bride-like.

    Want to get more men active in churches, i.e. the Church? Stop telling them they will become brides, and will someday marry Jesus! Anyway, most men are sick and tired of hearing their wives, or women in the church, tell the men that they (the women) can't wait to be married to Jesus. It's sickening!

    And always remember Paul's caveat in Colossians 2:8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of this world, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST!!!

    I've written enough for now.

    Blessings, peace, and love in the joy and privilege of serving Jesus & testifying of Him!



    Founder/Director - Body Building Ministries - Building the Body of Christ, SOULdier by SOULdier

  • Rich Prickitt 5 years ago

    NO! Israel is NOT the Bride of Christ. Israel was the people of God, the children of Israel. There are NO types of the Church in the OT.

    In the NT, we are both the teknon AND huios sons of God. Jesus is our Brother: We have the same Father. We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. I do not intend to give up my son-ship to become my Father's daughter-in-law.

    Moreover, Jesus enlisted (chose) me to be a good soldier, enduring hardness. And, Jesus makes me a king and a priest.

    Blessings, peace, and love in the joy and privilege of serving Jesus AND testifying of Him!

    Rich Prickitt


  • Sonja 4 years ago

    This message is something that I have been in search of. I have been hearing for so long we are to get ready to be His bride and then that He had made us His son's and thought, this is just not clicking in my mind . Thank you for making this very clear and I am so glad to have run across this message. God bless you.

  • Manly E Slough 4 years ago

    Do you Know Jean Shephard? I agree with you and have for many years. Was shown this teaching by Jean Shephard in Boise, Idaho.

    God Bless

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    Manly E Slough,


    I don't know Jean Sheaphard

  • graceinus 4 years ago

    To toddott

    I just want to make a brief statement to toddtt comment.

    There is no confirmed evidence in the Bible that states or supports the bride of Christ is the church doctrine. Over time religion has created this doctrine to support their idea that they are the select few "the Elect" to seperate themselves from other churches or Religions.

    I firmly believe that the church are those who Christ has identified a citizens (elect) of the Kingdom of God. I also firmly believe that the word church, as mentioned in Matt. 16:18 (KJV) that is stated by Jesus in taken out of context by 99% of christian religion today.

    Many out their wrongly identify the OT Isreal as the church or a least assocate church with the 144,000. And that they are the bride of Christ. And I should mention their is nothing in the bible to support that doctrine either.

    As clearly stated in the Book of Reveltion, the Bride of Lamb (Jesus) is the New Jerusalem, which is clearly stated.(Which is the first time the word church is mention in the bible) How any religion can come up with something different is beyond me. Only false doctrine can slip in the idea that it is anything else.

    It is evident to me that religion has and will continue to interpret the bible the way they see fit. And not take the time to understand God's meaning of his Word.

    Many times cdacoffee has clearly stated Rev. 21:9 for all to see and yet the arguments contnues.

    We should not allow any religion to interpret the bible for us. We should allow the Holy Spirit reveal understanding to us as we study God's word for ourselves.

    Many blessing to you.

  • Brent McBain 4 years ago

    and to LES,

    The Bible IS the WORD of God. The LOGOS. It is the Testimony of Christ. God is greater than a piece of flesh. He became man as the Word. The Bible is the testimony of all Christ is and why He came. To say that the "good news" is not also the Word is to have no basis for belief in Jesus or an authoritative document to stand firm in our faith. No one ever said the physical pages are the Word or Jesus. You can burn a Bible and it does nothing. The Word lives. The Holy Spirit testifies to us through the written word. Don't make an issue out of nothing. Believe in Christ. wait, hearing His Word.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    The issue here is not about nothing it is about a doctrine that leads people to believe that we have to do works in order to be perfect ("...when the bride hath made herself ready."). So then the Christian would have to do something to get "...herself reaady." if the church is the "bride of Christ."

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    I find it amusing that I have repeatedly directed all of us to the fact that Rev. 21 CLEARLY states that the Lamb's wife is the Holy Jerusalem but yet people still have to argue.

  • gary archibald 4 years ago

    The bride of Christ is Jerusalem, as John Says. Note also that the Bride in 19, is also the Harlot in chapters 17, 18; which is the great city from chapter 11, 16, 17, and of course 18. And you will note that Jerusalem is the bride, literally and figuratively in the Old Testament. This also makes the best prophetic and Gospel sense.

  • Gary Archibald 4 years ago

    1.The Bible is the Word of God

    2. The fact that Jerusalem is both the Great City, the Woman, the Harlot, and the Bride testifies to the essence and supreme beauty of. . . Grace.

    3. The prophecies simply tell us that Jerusalem would be as though the Lord had not rejected her. See Isaiah 54 and Zechariah 10:6.

    4. the focus is not with the Bride is not, but who she is: She obviously is Jerusalem! How does she play into God's unfolding plan/prophecy for grace and world dominance, both in the Great Tribulation and in the Thousand year reign of Christ.

    5. What is God's Plan for Jerusalem and Israel from Deuteronomy 32(also chapter 28-31).

    I am telling you, this is great stuff, full of grace and the affirmation that the word of God is authoritative and and pivotal.

  • luvdemstillers 4 years ago

    As a rookie, I'll say this: there is scripture to support both views, though I have my own which I won't get into. I see Satan getting involved with all the arguments and I don't see enough "false doctrine" for anyone here to go to hell for. I will ask this: is there anyone in the new Jerusalem right now other than God and Jesus? Are they even in it now or not until it comes down? We will see the true meaning in time and no one will care who is right or wrong. Let's all pray for the Apostate Church and for those who will may be susceptible. Let us all see the righteousness and love in our True God and Prince Jesus. In Jesus name, Amen.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    My concern with the "bride of Christ" doctrine is that those who subscribe to it must, by default, also believe that he must do something (works) to get "herself" ready therefore putting that person back under the curse of the law.

    According to the gospel of Grace, we are already righteous under the New Covenant. And if I'm righteous in the sight of God under the New Covenant, then I am already ready.

    Furthermore if we, as the church have to ALL make ourselves "ready" then there is no way we will ever be ready since all of our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Therefore, we have to believe that we, as a gift of salvation, are already ready through His righteousness.

    Please note that the bride's garment shines with the righteousness of the saints. It is not the saint's that are the bride but rather the light that causes the Bride to to shine.

    We are the body of Christ and not His bride.

    Thanks for you comment.

  • graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    I believe there is a lot of confusion in the Body of Christ regarding the Bride of Christ issue. As CDACOFFEE has mentioned time and again, the issue we do not need to "Making ourselves ready" as it relates to WORKS.

    I believe one of the big problems we have in the Body of Christ is the understanding of the word WORKS as it relates in the OT and the NT. The word Works has a diffferent context in the OT than it does in the NT.

    Works in the OT was focused more on the individual own effort and more self serving and through it have right standings with God. As opposed to the Works in the NT which is an individual who is more focused on the needs of others and gives of himself because of his love for God and his neighbor.

    Many in the Body of Christ believe that OT Works still applies in the NT which is where the problem lies.

    We can not get ourselves ready through OT works. Because we are already ready through the NT Works of Jesus Christ.

    It is because of Grace through Faith that we demostraight our NT Works towards our fellow man and God throught love.

  • 4 years ago

    You are totally right,the church is not the Bride of Christ..we are the BODY of Christ..anyone with a little research,as you have done will see we can't be the Bride and the Body..God doesn't work like that.Thanks for your post.

  • boyet 4 years ago

    Body of Christ is HE - Bride of Christ is she. Two different Gender.

  • Guest 4 years ago


    Bible also says anyone who calls someone a "fool" is in danger of hell fire and "fool" means one who is now a believer of the word of God. Jesus said go ye into all the world and preach ye the gospel. He never said to call people fools. You are in danger of hell fire and puffed up and you need to repent

  • graceinus 4 years ago

    I think it would be note worthy to review Rev 22:17 which states:

    17 And the Spirit and the BRIDE say; Come. And let him who hear say; Come. And let him who thrist come. Whoever desires, let him take water of life freely.

    John wrote Revelation around 90 AD which was revealed to him by the Spirit. In the verse above it would indicate the New Jerusalem (Bride) is in heaven at the time of the writing of Revelation.

    This would seem to me to rule out the bride of Christ is the church doctrine.

    CDACOFFEE, I am very greatful for your Hub. God Bless.

  • jb 4 years ago

    so cdacoffee

    im a little confused about a different doctrin after

    reading your post.

    "I agree. We shouldn't continue to be "of the world" once we get saved. But still we can't be perfect."

    this is your quote and then later

    "We are perfect because we have been given the gift of righteousness. "

    I think i agree that we are the body of christ.

    and i know there is no sin in him so how can we be

    his body and be sinfull at the same time?

    Does Jesus righteousness make us perfect or not?

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    You need to judge yourself and not me. As I recall, Paul called the Galations fools. So, what do you do with that?

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    As far as God is concerned we are perfect.

  • Ixthus12 4 years ago

    One thing I want to point out to you all is that The LORD did't die to save a city but a people for His name sake. Ou are making too big a deal out of this. We ate saved by God's grace through the person and work of Jesus Christ. Read 1Corinthians 1:30 and you will see that Jesus has become hat we could not; Jesus has become o us wisdom, righteousness, notification and redemption. So how could we, who are born again through Jesus, still sin and be born again? When we walk by the flesh and not by the Spirit. John says in his first Epistle, "I write these things unto you that you may not sin but if anyone does we have an advocate with the Father who is Jesus Christ the Righteous. We who are born again learn not to sin as we are taught not to by learning the word of God. Jesus says in Matthew 28, " make disciples and teach them to obey everything I say."

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    I don't think that I am making too big a deal about all of this as the bride of Christ teaching states that the bride has to get herself ready. If that is true then I had to do some kind of a work to get ready. Paul said that the Galations were fools because they went back to "works" and that those that do go back to "works" put themselves back under the curse of the law. But Jesus died to give us the GIFT of righteousness. As far as God is concerned, we are perfect, righteous, sanctified and etc., as His gift to us. So then, the Bride has to be somebody else and NOT the church. We don't have to get ready. We are already ready.

  • graceinus 4 years ago

    jb, I hope the following will hope answer your question relating to "We are made perfect because we have been given the gift of righteousness" and yet you wonder why we still sin and at the same time we are the body of Christ( not the bride of Christ).

    I draw your attention to 1 Thessalonions 2:23 NKJV which states: 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you COMPLETLY; and may your Spirit, Soul and Body be preserved blamless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    In this verse above it clearly indicates there our three parts to each and every one of us. Spirit, Soul and Body. It is wrong to think that the Spirit and Soul is or means the same thing, it is not. The Soul part of us is are mind, emotions and will. The Soul and body is the carnal part of each of us. Carnal means what we can identfy through our 5 sences. What we see, hear, touch, smell and tast.

    When we received Christ as our Savior, it is the spirit part of us that receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and it's the Spirit part of us that receives the richtiousness of Christ. And in our heart is where the spirit dwells. This is why God looks at our heart. The change in us does not come from outside in but from the inside out. As we study the word of God, the Holy Spirit reveals within us Knowledge and Wisdom of God and what He wants revealed to us.

    The Carnal part of us is in constant conflict with the Spirit. Our mind and body will sin, but our Spirit is sealed with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and can not be corrupted. As our faith grows our soul begins to identify with the spirit part of us, the things we learn in the spirit part of us begins to draw our spirital to the physical. Our mind (Soul) wants to react to our spirit part of us within our heart. Our physical body will never on it own react or respone to our Spirit.

    This is why we our a new creature or a new being. We becaome part of the body of Christ. We become a creature that never existed before.

    This does not mean we will not commit acts of sin, because again the carnal mind (Soul) will alway be in conflict with the spirit part of us. The evil one still has power to influence our thoughs and our will. Yet our faith comes from the spirit part of us which is given to us from God which allow us to resist sin.

    It is the Spirit part of us that is in the body of Christ,yet it is our body that remain carnal. But our Soul can act on what was learn from our spirit to influence our body. This is why we can not make ourself righteous based on our own efforts. This is why our Soul knows right and wrong.

    Jesus Christ is the best example of this. His Spirit was in perfect harmony with his Soul and Body. The Holy Spirit dwelled in the heart of Jesus. This is why he never sin, this is why He never doubted, this is why He raised people from the dead, this is way He was able to heal the sick, this is why He could walk on water, this is why he was able to preach the Kingdom of God and Rightiousness. This is why He was perfect. And this is why He could not be conceived though a human father.

    This is why we are perfect and righteous through our savior Jesus Christ. His Grace on us and our faith in him allows us to understand in our heart Spirit, Soul and Body. The Holy Spirit will guide our hearts. As we open our hearts (Spirit) to the Holy Spirit we will begin to see and hear.

    The Body of Christ are those (our Spirits) who are the

    citizens of the Kingdom of God. This should never be confused with the issue of the bride of Christ is the Church or is not the church. As CDACOFFEE has stated many times "We are already made Righteous through Jesus". If one understands that it's our Spirit part of us that is righteous, then it allows us to understand who we are in the BODY OF CHRIST.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho


    You are correct that I believe the church is already ready through His gift of righteousness and santification. As a result, the church does not have to do anything to "be ready". The church is already ready.

    BUT... I never said we can just go live the old life.

    These are two different issues in Christianity.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    "If we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26

    The book of Hebrews was written to the Jews who had been preached to by Paul that Jesus is their Messiah. They rejected Jesus. Therefore the sacrifice that Jesus was for them cannot not be a sacrifice for their sins. This also is true for anyone who hears (receives the knowlede of the truth) the gospel and rejects it.

    This scripture is not talking to the those of us who have received the knowledge of the truth and have accepted Jesus as our Lord and savior.

    As I recall there are NO conditions for people to have salvation except to call upon the name of the Lord and/or to believe on Him (John 3:16 and Romans 10:13).

    So then can someone willfully and with premeditation sin be saved? Yes. Grace does not stop working even if we willfully sin. If it did then how can we account for the scripture that tells us there is only one unforgivable sin; that of blasphemey of the Holy Spirit? Blasphemey of the Holy Spirit is receiving the knowledge of the truth and rejecting it.

    But PLEASE understand that I am NOT advocating willfully sinning in any way... but for those of us who stuggle with sin and sin willfully, God still loves us and we still have our salvation and we stil have His righteousness!

    We are the church!. We are the body of Christ! We are already without spot and blemish! We are already ready so there is no way that the church is the bride of Christ. The Holy Jerusalem is! Because the Bible says so! Rev 21:9-10

  • full gospel 4 years ago

    Behold, we come in peace, just sharing perspectives, and trying to put together the Body of Christ so that Jesus comes home to a united and fully mature Bride.

    CDACoffee started a very interesting discussion, almost as hot a polemic as the "once saved, always saved (OSAS)" issue and difficult to resolve if people hold to extreme views.

    The Bridal Paradigm is not against the teaching of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone (Eph 2.8, 9) but extends to doing to good works which God prepared in advanced for us to do (Eph 2.10).

    During the Reformation Period, against the extreme of salvation by works and indulgences, it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to bring out the teaching of salvation by grace. Fast forward to 21st Century, salvation by grace alone has brought about a whole breed of Christians who have abused the grace and love of Christ to their own detriment. BALANCE is important (Ecc 7.18 - it is grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all 'extremes'.)

    The Bridal Paradigm is a very helpful perspective in keeping the body of Christ pure and holy till the Groom comes. A pure and holy Bride would certainly please the LORD JESUS.

    As to the term "Bride of Christ", its absence is similar to the absence of such terms as "Trinity" or even "computer". The absence of the term doesn't mean that it is absent in principle.

    All in all, it would be best if we accommodate differences in perspectives of thinking and processing. It would be best to add up all these beautiful experiences, which could still never amount to the whole of Christ who is infinite. Paul even recognized that there would be differences among the Corinthians (1 Cor 11.19) to show which among them would have God's approval. Paul was expecting that resulting fruit of the Christians would prove the points made. And even that could not be formulated in concrete because the Holy Spirit is ever so fluid. We don't want to end up becoming Pharisees of the New Testament.

    There are many churches who are responding well to the Bridal let them do what is good until Jesus comes. Their focus is on bridal preparation, good works empowered by the Holy Spirit. Other churches might be onto doing other things which Jesus Himself will evaluate upon His return. So let each one serve according to his calling and serve well. Let us add up all the good things which Jesus said we would be doing for His glory alone. This is one way of demonstrating unity in the Body of Christ.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    Full Gospel,

    Thank you for you comment.

    It is true that there is something to said about he bridal paradigm but I liken that paradigm to the covenant that I have made to my wife just as the New Covenant that, through Jesus sacrifce, God made to us. God made promises to us just as I have made promises to my wife. But just because God made promises to us in the New Covenant, does not make me a bride to Christ. Anything beyond that in our position to Christ in Him (as son of God and a member of Christ's body) is a stretch... Particularly in light of the scripture showing us EXACTLY who the lamb's wife is.

    Let me add that an understanding of the bridal paradigm is not necessary for all Christians to be able to live decent lives that manifest who He is in our lives.

  • full gospel 4 years ago

    Good day, dear Brother,

    Thank you for your response to my comment. This is a good exercise, like friends playing tennis.

    The metaphors and similes that the Word of God uses are entry points for the reader to connect with the gospel message. As one goes through the Hermeneutical cycle from Meaning (Historical, Literal, Theological Harmony), Principle (Timeless Truths), Insight, Significance (Personal Experiences) and Application, there will be some things that will grip a certain kind of people, but not the other. In fact, we often find that some verses leap at us after we have experienced something that will open up that verse - it isn't always logic or logos; but it is an inner revelation that brings about a deep spiritual response or rhema. As such, we have learned to be open to God's new inventory of wineskins and teaching tools. If some respond to the Bridal Paradigm, let them enjoy that discovery because the Holy Spirit let them experience that significance.

    One may have some Paradigms from the array of God's Word that speaks to that person more. That could be the theme and calling where he operates best. Others like the Warrior theme, others the Kingdom theme, others the Passover Lamb theme, others the Family theme. This is also the reason why The Father and The Son have so many Names. They can't just be reduced to one.

    The gospel was first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. The LORD used Israel as His first showcase with a clear intention of letting other nations experience. The Father's bridal experience with Israel is projected in Christ's bridal experience with the Church. Israel has its place, and so do the Gentiles. No one is replaced. (Rom 11)

  • Scott in Texas 4 years ago

    First, I am not so sure we can conclude that the holy city Jerusalem is the Lamb's wife, but where to look to see her. It never really makes the connection that the city is the lamb's wife; rather, it transitions from one reference to a description of the next, suggesting to some that they are the same. If you think about it though, the city would not be a wife, but the beings who inhabit it might. This leads us to answer just who will inhabit the holy city Jerusalem at that time.

    Second, we are saved by grace through faith, no question about that. But, then to suggest righteousness and earning salvation through works, is confusing two doctrines, one of salvation and one of obedience. The importance of obedience is found throughout the Scriptures, both old and renewed covenants. Salvation is a gift, which if genuine, produces a changed heart. For what? To be Christ-like, or obedient! Christ was our ultimate sacrifice AND perfectly obedient. He was our atonement and our example of how to live AFTER we have been saved by faith. How do we know this? Because we cannot be perfectly obedient, so we cannot earn salvation; so the purpose of His example, is for after we are saved and how we should then live. The Bible is also full of passages about consequences. The consequences of a Believers bad behavior have been resolved (or absolved), but the consequences of a Believer's good behavior is the NEXT STEP. For example, we are rewarded with crowns. Why not rewards for obedience in other ways.

    Just something to think about.

  • felicia 4 years ago

    the bride of christ is a female. Psalm 42:10. Is a female. Not the church.

  • Rockerid 4 years ago

    Id just like to point out that there is nothing more we can do to be ready for our Messiah, Yeshua! His sacrifice and out acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior made us ready. In James he writes how good works follow grace, a manifestation of the grace God had for us. I used to believe in the "bride" doctrine until I learned to stop making scripture fit a doctrine. And I used to debate for a church bride, but there was one thing I could never answer. If we are already righteous in His sight, and our good works are our way of showing our love for Him, how much love or how many good works or how much bible study or time spent in prayer does it take to be "bride-ready"? It's the same question I ask when witnessing to other "works" religions. When is enough a enough. A Christian is a Christian, saved by grace. There are many "Christians" today who I don't feel are saved as their lives don't mirror it at all but who am I to judge? What I want to know is what separates Christians into regulars and "bride-readies"? Cause I feel like I'm beginning to surrender all to Him, and its been a process. So when is enough enough? How many good works to outweigh my bad ones? Love and Shalom!

  • Fisher 4 years ago

    Once again a splinter group makes up another teaching to satisfy its own subjective interpretation of Scripture. Good for you. I dont agree with you at all. So Im going to make my own "church" and teach what I want. You have no authority to interpret scripture the way you "feel". Wake up.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    Perhaps this is not a splinter group... Perhaps its time the church wakes eup and realizes that we are not the bride of Christ but that the chuch is the glory of Christ of the bridal gown and that that glory is His righteousness...

  • rdwray 4 years ago

    I was reading this article which I agree with, but I ran into something rather interesting "Jesus can return now if God tells Him to. He can return at anytime." which says all prophecy has been fulfilled and that the pre-tribulation rapture is next and this is false:

    Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  • graceinus 4 years ago

    To be a citizen in the Kingdom of God , you have to be chosen.

    To be a member in the Body of Christ , you have to choose

  • Golden Oldie 4 years ago

    A lot of words written here but no one has shown that the Scripture ever

    says that the Church is the Bride of Christ. No one has shown that the Bible anywhere mentions those words "the Bride of Christ" Tell me if the Bible doesn't talk about "the Bride of Christ" why teach it? There is plenty for us to feed on in the Bible without going outside it and bringing something in that it never talks about.

    I am an old man now, some would tell me so, but my advice is feed on the Word of God, live by it's principles and don't get to bogged down in

    things that it never even mentions. The start of this is a fair enough question but get past it, Christianity is CHRIST not ourselves. If He can't satisfy us nothing will. Come up with your questions but after all it is not what man says which counts but what the Bible says. This is what is important. God bless you all. ISN

  • Yownah 4 years ago from Washington

    Amos 3:7

    In the same way that Israel is both a man (Jacob) and a kingdom, so the New Jerusalem is a woman and also a kingdom. At the wedding feast, all the church members are guests but one, the bride, she is the Lamb's wife. She is the capital and representative of the kingdom. She has made herself ready through faith - which itself is a gift - she has done nothing of herself to 'earn' this - it is all for, by, and because of the glory of God. The Lord shows mercy to whom He will and does what He deems best. As you have said, can we really begin to comprehend the ways of God?! I believe for all eternity we will continue to discover more and more of His excellent greatness and will ever be amazed at the ways in which He chooses to do His work. May His holy and blessed name be ever praised. The Lord will return to the earth from the wedding to bring the guests home. Lo, He is coming very soon - He is even at the door. 'The Spirit and the bride say "Come."'

    Luke 12:34-40

  • ARisingSon 4 years ago

    The only place I find the Bride identified(sort of) is Rev.21:9-11 where one of the seven messengers(angels) says,"Hither! I shall be showing you the bride,the wife of the Lambkin. ....And he carries me away,in spirit,......and shows me the holy city,Jerusalem,....having the glory of God." Verse 2 previously called this "the holy city,new Jerusalem,...made "ready" as a bride adorned for her husband."(Concordant NT)

    So,to know who is the Bride we must know who constitutes the New Jerusalem. Unless someone believes this is a literal city.

    Revelation is a book of signs and symbols. Little of it can be taken literally. However, the "Jewishness" of this book is very apparent when you read all the terms taken from Judaism/Old Testament. This has lead some to teach that the Bride will be those early Jewish and Gentile converts before the Dispensation of Grace was ushered in by Paul's prison epistles(not just this,of course,but many other proofs as well).

    Some have written on the possibility that the Bride is taken out of the Body just as Eve was taken out of the body of Adam. If that be the case then how is this "part" of the Body distinguished from the rest of the Body? I believe Jewish/OT tradition was that the father of the groom was instrumental in choosing a bride for his son. Thus the Father will choose from out of the Body the Bride for His Son. This bride will likely be manifest just before the Son returns to rule during the Kingdom Age. Bottom line, only Father knows who makes up the Bride. Not even the Son knows at this point.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho

    Golden Oldie,

    I really didn't expect that my tack on this topic would be so controversial. I only wanted to refute it because the "bride of Christ" doctrine denies the Pauline revelation of the "Gospel of Grace" since, essentially, the "bride of Christ" doctrine tells us that we have to "get ourselves ready"!

    So then Christianity becomes just another religion that requires some kind of a work to off-set the commision of the sins that we all make on a daily basis

  • rdwray 4 years ago

    I have not see where Paul said that the Church is the bride; he did say that the saved Christian was espoused to Christ as a virgin which has absolutely nothing to do with being a bride. Here a few verses to put context on what God says about the subject - a few are spelled out and the rest are listed below:

    Jeremiah 3 (NKJV)

    12 "Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: 'Return, backsliding Israel,' says the LORD; 'I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,' says the LORD; 'I will not remain angry forever.

    13 Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your God, And have scattered your charms To alien deities under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,' says the LORD.

    14"Return, O backsliding children," says the LORD; "for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

    Hosea 2 (NKJV)

    14 "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, Will bring her into the wilderness, And speak comfort to her.

    15 I will give her her vineyards from there, And the Valley of Achor as a door of hope; She shall sing there, As in the days of her youth, As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.

    16 "And it shall be, in that day," Says the LORD, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' And no longer call Me 'My Master,'

    Lamb's wife - Jerusalem represents Israel (See God's wife): Rev 21:9-10; Rev 19:7-9. (Description of the bride: Rev 19:10-21)

    (God compares Israel to a "woman": Jer 3:6.)

    Guests invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb: Matt 22:1-14.

    Virgins invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb: Matt 25:1-13.

    God is betroted to Israel: Jer 3:14; Hos 2:18-19

    Can Christ marry His brothers: John 20:17; 1John 3:1.

    Christians are sons of God: John 1:12; Rom 8:14 and joint heirs with Christ: Rom 8:16-17.

    Jews invitation to supper and refuse it: Luke 14:16-20.

    Gentiles invitated to the supper because of the Jews rejection of Christ: Luke 14:21-23.

  • godlovejoy 4 years ago

    Sometimes I do a search on a subject and I searched "Bride of Christ" and came up with this article. Very good, and true. Cdacoffee has wisdom. There are many things being taught today that are not discerned by the Holy Spirit and are interpreted by our flesh, so we are off on a lot of things. This is one of them. There is a chosen group, Jesus says in the parable of the wedding feast that many are called but few are chosen. The Spirit draws many and calls many, but you must make yourself worthy and chosen by your own choosing to follow Christ and give up your life to him. Whatever He asks, whether you have to leave family, houses, lands, whatever. Then He will put you through a time of testing with many trials, and sufferings that you must endure to be made worthy of this calling and to be chosen. You do the will of the Father, and He gives you the grace to do it. So in essence, you choose to be chosen. You can't fail, if you keep following. This is the new covenant made with Christ. They are the Bride because they will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and become One with Christ. Those that are chosen are described in Rom. 8:29,30

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    These chosen are the firstborn among many brothers/Sisters, and will be glorified, they are from every race and tongue, Gentile, or Jew, Male or Female. These chosen are the chosen "Israel." They will be taken to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and become one with Christ in the First Resurrection, and receive their spiritual body, just as Christ did when He rose from the dead. They will rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years as Priests, Kings, Judges and judge the people who were not chosen. It's a high calling that when followed will produce an inheritance of great honor and authority. They will be as the Angels of God. This is the Bride.

  • richprickitt 4 years ago

    Dear Bro. Coffee,

    In Genesis 2:22, God, the Father of Adam, presents Adam with his bride. In Revelation 21:2, 9-11, The Lamb's wife comes down, from God (Jesus' Father) out of heaven. Once God establishes a pattern, He will NEVER alter it. I.e. Nowhere in Scripture is it recorded for us that a man ever presented his bride to himself.

    And as far as 2 Corinthians 11:2 is concerned, the only thing the apostle Paul presents to Jesus is himself a living sacrifice - just as you and I, and every Christian is supposed to do or be doing.

    (In that verse, Paul is 'speaking' in the middle voice - wishing he could, but lamenting he cannot present the rebellious faction in the church at Corinth as a chaste virgin to Christ. In the chapter's opening verse, Paul asks his 'audience' to bear with him in his folly.)

    Therefore, Jesus does NOT present His bride to Himself, but His Body in Ephesians 5:27.

    Beginning in Ephesians 5:18, the apostle Paul commences his 'seminar' on relationships. The first is each individual's relationship with and to his Lord. The second is a husband and wife's relationship to each other, which should mirror Christ's relationship with and to His Church, Which is His Body (verses 28-30). (Christ's relationship to His Church demonstates the highest standard of love [agape].) The third relationship is that between parents and children (Ephesians 6:1-4). And the fourth and final relationship is that of servants and masters (Ephesians 6:5-9).

    And it must be remembered that those that attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-8) are comprised of ALL the saints of ALL the ages that have arrived in heaven by the occasion of the 'Wedding Feast' of the Lamb, at which the Lamb is not even present! (Jesus does not arrive until verse eleven.

    Question: Would Jesus lead the armies in heaven - clothed in fine linen, white & clean (v. 8 fine linen, clean & white) - to go forth to judge and make war after He had just acquired them as His bride? No, He would not. The events in Revelation 21 occur AFTER Christ's millennial reign, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, and AFTER the first heaven and the first earth were passed away. (Cf. 2 Peter 3:10-13.)

    And if the "saints" in Revelation 19:8 are only Church saints, which are to be Christ's bride, then God is a respecter of persons - which we know He is not.

    Blessings, peace, and love in the joy and privilege of serving Jesus & testifying of Him!

    Rich Prickitt

    Prophet/Evangelist/Teacher - Founder/Director of Body Building Ministries, Inc. - Building the Body of Christ SOULdier by SOULdier

  • jimmydelr 4 years ago

    nice topic

  • tru10000 4 years ago

    Peace and grace to all who have written on this hub, including the OP.

    God is omnipotent, all knowing, eternal and holy, holy, holy. He is love. Only by love does anything we know really matter. Can you imagine Almighty God, full of love and justice, marrying an inanimate object? I can't.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho


    ...then explain why it says in the Old Testament that God says He is married to the Land?

    Furthermore, explain why John is shown the Holy City of Jerusalem by the angel that showed him the "bride, the Lamb's wife"?

    I beleive that such concepts are a part of the "mystery of the gospel". We may not really understand how the "bride" could be the Holy City of Jerusalem or how God could say in the book of Hosea that He is married to the land but nevertheless that is what the word says so the bride, the Lamb's wife is the Holy City of Jerusalem.

  • EbRoy 4 years ago

    This is a subject that never settled in my spirit. All I have is a question. Revelation 22:17 was mentioned sometime last year. "The Spirit and the Bride say come," But the person left off there. It's not only the Spirit and the Bride that say come. If the person would have continued you would have read, "and let him who hears say come." So, in Rev. 22:17 you have three seperate entities saying "come." You have the "Spirit." Doesn't take a genuis to figure out that's the Holy Spirit who is always wooing us and calling us unto repentence. Then there's the "Bride." Many believe that is the church. But it doesn't fit the description. However, the third entity, those who hear, or have heard definitely does. And what are they doing? Bidding people to come, because they have heard. Heard what? Could it be the good news? The way I see it, the identity of the Bride is a mystery. When the angel tells John that he is going to show John the Bride, John only describes a city that is decorated for the wedding. Sorry, no leaked photos or paparazzi allowed....the Holy Spirit doesn't allow John to describe her, only a city decked out for a celebration. I believe the Bride of Christ is an individual being....a secret and a mystery to us.

  • jenchristopherson profile image

    jenchristopherson 4 years ago from maricopa, az

    You are right. The Bride is one individual being and a secret and a mystery to all. Just as Jesus Christ is a secret and mystery about his second comming and how he is here now on earth for his Bride. He is not here to be famous and neither does he want his Bride to be famous either. We like our privacy but he is still omnipresent and here with all spiritually and Loving us all the way he does best. I feel like my life is a dream come true and it is really real and you don't have to pinch me to wake me up from this fantastic dream because I am awake and this life withmy husband is real and really happening. Praise God forever I love him so much. God Bless Jennifer Christopherson

  • rdwray 4 years ago

    God is a spirit, why would He marry an individual - Mormon theology.

  • graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    It is amazing how we christians can see things in the bible that isn't there and then turn around and fail to see the things that are.

    I believe this is the difference between interpertation and clear understanding of God's word.

    As cdacoffee mentioned so many times the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem which is clearly stated in Rev: 21: 10. When one mentions the Body of Christ, then this is something which can be found throughout the New Testament.

    In this case many christian clearly interpert and/or assume the Bride of Christ is the chruch doctrine, due the the fact that much of the Bride of Christ is the church doctrine come from those who stand at the pulpits.

    When ministers and others who teach do not understand the word of God themselves, then we as christian end up believing their err.

    For example of what we see and don't see in God's word, I have heard so many times from different ministers and preasts over time regarding the Old Covenant, that God gave only one covenant to Moses on Mt Sinai for the Nation of Isreal (it is refered to now days as the Old Covenant). I have NEVER heard it tought that God actually gave Moses TWO covenants. As I later learned in time, on my owen, it was revealed that God in fact gave Moses TWO Covenants in all. For proof of this I draw your attention to the (OT) Book of Deuteronomy 29:1 which states:

    These our the words of the COVENANT which God commanded Moses to make with the children of Isreal in the land of Moab, BESIDES the COVENANT which He made with them in Horeb.

    (Horeb is the location in which Mt. Sinai sits)

    So how did we as christians miss this important fact regarding the TWO Old Covenants which is never tought. But those who stand in front of a pulpit will teach the Bride of Christ is the Church doctrine.

    We christians depend far to much on ministers and preasts for our understanding of God's word. So when we listen to doctrine like the Bride of Christ is the Church, then we allow others to see for us. We allow others to misunderstand, the Covenants of God, for us. So no doubt if they (ministers) see what is not in the word of God and teach it as doctrine, then that is the way most christians will learn err.

    The point I am trying to make is this. The Bride of Christ is the Church is a doctrine that one can not prove. We allow many preasts and ministers to mislead us into false or wrong doctrine. Why is it that one would teach something that is not in God's word ( the Bride of Christis the Church issue), but have no problem in failing to mention something as important as TWO Old Covenants. Which is clearly writen but nobody teaches. Why.

  • Vladimir Uhri profile image

    Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

    All we know there will be wedding celebration. There will be wedding supper. I believe it is unification of all believers and it includes the 1. Church, 2. 144,000 Jewish believers and 3. Martyrs of Great Tribulation period.

    My question is, Lamb is going to marry city or people of New Jerusalem?

    Agape to all.

  • brianvt 4 years ago

    Great conversation! My take:

    1. Church is a mystery to the Prophets and can't be seen in the Tanakh(OT).

    2. Mt Sinai is Israel's betrothal (kiddushin).

    3. 2nd Coming is Israel's Marriage (nissiun).

    4. Then there is the resurrection of the Just (all saints, except for the Church which was resurrected as first fruits at the Rapture).

    5. Sukkot is the marriage feast of the Lamb, celebrating the marriage to Israel. Great Joy!

    6. Jesus destroys all armies at armageddon

    6. Then there is the 1000 year Sabbath, during which, mortal saints continue to die.

    7. Then the Great White Throne judgment which includes the resurrection of the millenial saints.

    8. The new Jerusalem comes down which is all of Israel, OT-Trib-Mill.

    9. Church is in heaven and stays there, the last time you see the Church in scripture is Rev 3.22

    10. Church is the body of Christ and rules over the angels in heaven.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 4 years ago from Idaho


    Great list! and really helpful in additionally establishing the fact that the church is NOT the bride...

  • rdwray 4 years ago

    1. Israel is God's wife (Jeremiah 3:14)

    2. First resurrection is martyrs only who were killed for Word of God (Revelation 20:4-6).

    3. Second resurrection is those who are written in the Lamb's book of and and those who are not (Revelation 20:11-13).

    4. The Bride of Christ is New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2).

  • ericbowk 4 years ago


    I love your boldness and truth, but unfortunately the church today has believed in this false doctrine cda is believing, we know it clearly says Jesus will not return to a bride that is blemished, we know the parable of the lamps and oil, this false message of grace is preventing the return of Jesus, Jesus told us we must be righteous and holy. People forget it is written that whoever willfully sins after receiving the knowledge of truth there will remain no more forgiveness of sin, but only a fiery expectation of judgment. That should put a stop to all this fakes grace . It is s ickening how people spit on grace and Gods son. As me me I PLEDGE MY ALLEGIANCE TO JESUS and to everything He s

  • Evangelist Anita profile image

    Evangelist Anita Fuentes 3 years ago from California

    @cdacoffee - my brother you are a breath of Holy Spirit fresh air! Jesus bless you my friend, Amen! First I want to say you made me laugh when you stated in much earlier comments that a lady stated in all seriousness that she was the Holy Spirit. Wow. What audacity and ungodly deception.

    I, by God's Grace have been preaching on this extensively and have gotten ALOT of resistance from many in the Body of Christ, it is amazing to say the least. I just posted this link on both my personal FB page and ministry FB page. I believe you would be interested in listening to our end-time ministry broadcast titled 'Open Your Eyes People 'where we bring Breaking News headlines Matching Bible Prophecy on Youtube. I will post a link to it. Please check it out.

    I have spent the last hour going over practically evey comment written concerning this blessed article of Truth and praise Jesus for His Grace upon you to not grow weary while doing good and telling the same Truth over and over. With so many who oppose this view and DESPERATELY try and refute it it can make one wonder what caused them to stumble onto this page in the first place. Perhaps a Holy Spirit conviction that the Church is not the Bride of Christ but in Truth is New Jerusalem and saying otherwise is REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY another doctrine among many from the pit of hell.

    CDA I pray Jesus' richest and purest blessings be upon you and your entire household and very important ministry in this final lap. Jesus is coming soon....Amen

    Your honored sister in Christ,

    Evangelist Anita

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 3 years ago from Idaho

    To ericbowk:

    False doctrine of grace? Seriously? Maybe you oughta read Romans and listen to what Joseph Prince's teachings are saying about grace and how it really works...

    God is even gonna overlook the fact that either one of us could be sinning by willfully preaching a false doctrine. Either mine is a false doctrine or yours is.

    The word says that all we have to do to be saved is call on the name of the Lord.

    I'm right about this dude. If we have to do something to become without spot and blemish then we are putting ourselves back under the law.

    We all sin daily boht inadvertently and deliberately. So then according to your position none of us will make it.

    Maybe you need to go back and research what is really meant about "willfully sinning".

    That passage means that there is no more forgiveness of sin because I tried to become without spot and blemish out of my own doing something (that is willfully trying to become without spot and blemish by doing something to become that way and all the while ignoring that we were given the gift of righteousness and are already are without spot and blemish).

    The truth is, is that is already done by the work that Jesus did and not by some work that I might do. That is grace and that message is not a false doctrine of Grace. So then, I say that you are an idiot. Oh crap... I said that willfully... Guess I'm not gonna be forgiven... Geez!

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 3 years ago from Idaho


    "Sinning willfully" means that if I willfully do works to achieve no spot or blemish, salvation, blessings, holiness, sanctification, righteousness, and etc., etc. then I fail. Doing works to achieve anything is the willful sin that is being discussed in that passage of scripture. This is doing a work to get a result from God. It don't work that way bro! There is nothing I can do, good OR bad that will get me through those Pearly Gates or keep me out if I believe His grace is more that abounding towards me. If we don't believe that, then whats the point of believing Christianity is the true way?

    Everything under grace is free no matter what I do EXCEPT for deciding that God does not exist and neither does His grace towards me. That is the definition of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". It is, according to the Word the ONLY unforgivable sin.

  • rdwray 3 years ago

    This is far off the subject of the blog, but my greater concern is that no one ever reads the Bible, they always quote someone else.

    "Sinning willfully" means "intentional sin"; in other words, you know you are doing wrong when you do it such as lie. " Hebrews 10:26 (NKJV) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

    People seem to think that "all I have to do is recognize Jesus and I have it made; the greatest and most false teaching by anyone. "Luke 9:62 (NKJV) But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”"

  • graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    I think rdwray and ericbowk both need to read John 16: 8 and 9 (NKJV) which states: 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of SIN, and of righteousness, and of Judgement; 9 of SIN, because they do not believe in ME,

    You see folks , the ONLY SIN we will be convicted of is not believing in Jesus. And that is the ONLY sin. The He, that Jesus was refering to in verse 8 is the Holy Spirit. You both need to UNDERSTAND what this means in it's CONTEXT. And that's the problem with you two when you're too wrapped up in religion. You end up blinded. Learn the bible for yourself and try to understand the CONTEXT. Through Christ Jesus we have received GRACE.

    CDACOFFEE, I think this bride of Christ is not the church is a issue that should continue to be supported. There are to many religions out there that continue to shove bad doctrine down peoples throats. And I also believe there are far far less people in Christ Church than people who call themselves christians realize. You continue to have my 100% support.

    God Bless.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 3 years ago from Idaho

    I say to all of us that we have to read the entire letter Paul wrote to see what it is that he is talking about. We can't just jump on one passage and think we know what its really saying. Notice in Chapter 9 that he is discussing the sacrifices of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant Sacrifice Jesus made. Also continue on through the end of chapter 10 and chapter 11. This entire discussion is about the Old Covenant vs the New, living by works vs Faith.

    Paul's discussion to Hebrews on this topic is attempting to explain that under the New Covenant Jesus was the sacrifice "once and for all". He was telling the people that we have to think in a new way, times have changed, there is ”a new and better covenant”.

    The term in Hebrews 10, “willfully sin” refers to people sinning by rejecting the New Covenant. They were having trouble believing it. So, they rejected the New Covenant and went back to the Old Covenant. They were willfully sinning by rejecting the New Covenant of grace.

    Before Jesus was sacrificed, the sacrifices the priests made under Mosaic law happened once a year. Those sacrifices covered all the sins of the people for the year only. This had to be done once a year. But since Jesus had been sacrificed there was no need for the priest to perform their sacrifices annually anymore. “There no longer remains a sacrifice for sin”. It was a new day, a New Covenant had been born! Things don't work the same anymore. Jesus had been the last sacrifice. The age and dispensation of grace had arrived! Praise God! So then if we sin willfully, we are forgiven of that too under the New Covenant. But trying to obey the law now (by doing some kind of a work to get a response), under the mechanisms of the Old Covenant, if a person sinned and/or willfully sinned there was no longer the annual preistly sacrifice that would work to "cover" those sins. The sacrifices of the preists were no longer effective as Jesus had made the real and pure sacrifice of Himself to not just "cover" sins but to wash them all away “for once and for all”. He was saying its all different now. Its not the sacrifice of the priests that take care of covering sins but the sacrifice of Jesus washing away all your sins “once and for all”. Annual sacrifices of the preists were “no longer”.

    Galations 3 tells us that if we do a works we put ourselves back under the Mosaic law and requirements. That is; we partake in the Old Covenant so we will need the old annual sacrifice of the preists to cover the sins according to the Mosaic Covenant. He is saying that if we sin, being under that covenant then there is no more sacrifice being done now that will work to forgive sins (including willful sins since there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven; that is; rejecting God) according to the Mosaic Covenant's requirements. Those requirements (the annual sacrifice in particular) were dispensed and “no longer” when Jesus' sacrifice took care of all sins forever.

  • graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

    CDACOFFEE- What you are saying is the very point I was trying to make when I quoted John 16: 8 and 9 above. If one does not believe in Christ Jesus, then that is thee SIN. Of cource if one does not believe in Christ how would they understand they have His grace. The key point is Grace through faith is what wash away our SIN of not believing in Him. This is the foundation of Christ's church that He built. It's Grace. Understanding that Jesus did what we could never do, and that means being perfect. But the blind will never understand this.

    There are far to many churches out there that overlap the Old and New Covenants and build a doctrine that the bride of Christ is the Church. They are to blinded to understand that the death on the cross of Jesus Christ ended the Old Covenant (Law) and began the New Covenant (Grace). This is a alian concept to them. When overlaping the two Covenants it fogs the CONTEXT of the two covenants. And because of this people will cotinue to use verses in both the Old and New Testament to TRY and support their bride of Christ is the Church doctrine. Trying to get them to understand God's grace is like trying to lead a tree to water.

    Gad Bless you CDACOFFEE.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 3 years ago from Idaho


    Clarifying the two definitions we can ascribe to "sin willfully".

    1. "Sin willfully" in Hebrews 10; Rejecting Jesus as the final and last sacrifice of "once and for all". This leads to rejecting grace under the New Covenant and what Jesus accomplished on the cross for all of us.

    2. "Sinning willfully"; a person who has NOT rejected Jesus, the New Covenant grace and who is fully persuaded of the truth of it yet commits a sin such as drunkenness, fornication, etc.

    Adding to definition number 2 I would point out there are many Christians who have accepted Jesus and at the same time struggle with drunkenness, smoking, drugs, lusts of the flesh etc., etc.

    Lets just say for a minute that smoking is a sin. Christian smokers willfully smoke. The very fact that a person lifts their arm to their mouth with a cigarette is an act of their will. They have to "will" their arm to move it there. Am I right? Does this mean they can't be forgiven? Of course not! Don't be ridiculous! That is just plain stupid!

    Or what about the Christian who is struggling with certain addictions? They commit those sins deliberately. Does that mean they can't be forgiven either? Of course not. Its a foolish thing to think that God's grace is not sufficient enough to forgive in any of these cases. God is El Shaddai, the God who is MORE than enough.

    I would also like to add that almost any sin committed after becoming a Christian is an act of one's will. If this is the case then not one person who is a Christian can be forgiven under the idea that there is no longer a sacrifice available to us to be forgiven if we "sin willfully" as some have so stated in their comments here.

    So then, in Hebrews 10, Paul meant "sin willfully" is to reject the truth of Jesus being the ultimate and final "for once and for all" sacrifice.

    The OT sacrifices of those priests are null and void now. Theirs "no longer" work to cover sins. Only Jesus' sacrifice works and works and keeps on working, to forever and ever and ever wash away all sins.

    Go figure.

  • graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia


    I agree with you 100%.

  • eddieb97830 3 years ago

    Could it be ?

    Jesus himself has prepaired the bride, the Lambs wife. The Holy City.

    JN14:2 & 3

    In My Father's House are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you.

    And if I go and prepare a place for you. I will come, and recieve you unto Myself that where I am, there you may be also.

  • eddieb97830 3 years ago


    REV 21:9&10

    JESUS has prerared the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, the bride, the Lamb's Wife.

    REV 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him : for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

    JN 14: 2 & 3

    JN 2 In My Father's House are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    JN 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and recieve you unto Myself ; that where I am , there you may be also.

  • cdacoffee profile image

    cdacoffee 3 years ago from Idaho

    I absolutely believe that is what those passages mean. Thanks for that comment.

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