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An Argument for Christian Universalism: Why I Don't Believe in an Eternal Hell

Justin Aptaker writes about philosophy, religious studies, sociology, spirituality, culture, psychology, history, and the future.

Read all about Christian Universalism

Read all about Christian Universalism

Why I'm a Christian Universalist

I grew up in an evangelical Christian environment. Over the years, I developed a deep-seated terror of the idea of an eternal hell. Because of this, I eventually suffered a devastating mental breakdown centered around thoughts of my own damnation, and this finally drove me to find new beliefs I had never even anticipated.

Today, I believe that one may have a biblical Christian faith while rejecting the idea that anyone will spend an eternity in "hell." This is not to say that no one will be punished after death, but that this punishment is temporary and remedial (for the person's own good). Christian Universalism is the belief that, through Christ, God will eventually bring all people into a relationship with Himself.

The doctrine of Universalism makes sense to me because many Christian scriptures explicitly state it; because it can be inferred from the Christian conception of God's nature; because it was widely taught within the early church, seemingly unchallenged by the church for hundreds of years; and because scriptures that seem to contradict the doctrine can be viewed as either mistranslations or misinterpretations.

Christian Universalism is the belief that God will eventually bring all people into a relationship with him.

Christian Universalism is the belief that God will eventually bring all people into a relationship with him.

The Bible Explicitly Supports Universalism

The Bible explicitly states the doctrine of Universalism in many places. Romans 5:18 says that "just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." The context of the whole chapter makes it clear that the "one trespass" was the sin of Adam and Eve and the "one righteous act" was the act of Jesus sacrificing Himself on the cross. See how it says "justification", and not only "life"? It isn't talking about merely a physical resurrection for all people, but new spiritual life and forgiveness for all people.

Theologians often try to explain away scriptures like this by saying that the word "all" means "all the elect" or "all who believe." But the Greek word for "all" ("panta") undoubtedly means the same thing that it does in English: simply put, it means "all." This is also clear from the context of the passage from Romans that I quoted above. Notice how the verse starts by saying "just as." So, if we ask ourselves who is included among the "all people" who receive justification and life, the only sensible answer is that it is the very same "all people" who received condemnation due to the sin of Adam and Eve. In other words, it means every person who has ever lived.

Another example is Romans 11:32, which says, "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all." It is very clear from reading the whole chapter of Romans 11 that when it says "everyone" was bound over to disobedience, it is referring to every single person. So, when the verse speaks of God having mercy on them "all", it is once more referring to every person. There are many other scriptures like this. Just a few examples include John 12:32, 1 Timothy 4:10, Colossians 1:19, Lamentations 3:31, Eph. 1:9 & 10, 1 Cor. 15:28, and Rev. 5:13.

Importantly, the Christian scriptures define "eternal life" not as an endless duration of life but as a certain quality of life. That is, eternal life is defined as the quality of life that a person has when a person is living in communion with That which is Eternal. This is how Jesus is quoted as defining it: "Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent" (John 17:3).

Similarly, He says, "You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life" (John 5:39 - 40). I'll return to this line of thought later in this article.

Reflection on God's Nature Leads to Universalism

Next, the nature of God, as described in the Christian scriptures, leads me to believe in Universalism. I believe that God is Love. Indeed, the Christian Bible also states that explicitly (1 John 4:8). If God is Love, then surely he wants the best for every person. Many scriptures support this. 1 Timothy 2:4 says, "God … wants all people to be saved". Again, He "does not want anyone to perish, but for everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). There are several other scriptures that plainly state that God desires salvation for everyone.

I also believe God is powerful and wise enough to accomplish whatever He wants. When Christ's disciples once asked him, "Who can be saved?" part of his response was, "With God, all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26), by which we can infer: God can save anyone! If God desires that every person be saved, and He can save anyone, how can anyone not be saved? The doctrine of eternal damnation suggests that either God's love or God's power is deficient.

I've often heard it objected that God can save anyone, but He will not do so because He refuses to interfere with the "free will" of any person. However, that idea is not scriptural at all. Isaiah 46:10 says, "I (God) will accomplish all that I please." In other words, if God desires something, He not only has the ability to obtain it, but He will obtain it. "God … wants all people to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4) and God "will accomplish all that" He pleases (Isaiah 46:10). Therefore, human free will is not going to thwart God's desires. See also Daniel 4:35 and Romans 9:16-21. Also, note how the discussion in Romans 9:16-21 continues all the way to its final conclusion at Romans 11:32, which is explicitly universalistic. In fact, Paul is in such awe at this wonderful conclusion that he lapses into ecstatic worship for the next few verses (Romans 11:33-36).

Again, the Christian scriptures say, "God is Agape (Love)" and "Agape never fails" (1 John 4:8, 1 Cor. 13:8). God is wise enough to have designed the universe in such a way that eventually all people will freely choose to love Him. No person will choose for all eternity to continue rejecting Him. Universalism is the only position that is in full harmony with the nature of God, as described by Christians and the Christian scriptures.

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Origen, one of the most eminent early church fathers, taught Christian Universalism.

Origen, one of the most eminent early church fathers, taught Christian Universalism.

Universalism Was Unchallenged by the Early Church

I also learned that Universalism was openly taught and widely believed throughout the early Christian church for hundreds of years, only being formally denounced as heretical by the Roman emperor Justinian in the middle of the sixth century. For most of the years prior to this, there is no record of the doctrine having been censured, despite the fact that very many ideas were continually being attacked or censured as heretical throughout these years by the church.

Dr. Hosea Ballou, who served as the first president of Tufts University in Massachusetts, informs us in his book The Ancient History of Universalism that for hundreds of years, Universalism was explicitly taught by such eminent church fathers as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa with very widespread acceptance and little or no evident resistance from within the church. Not everyone believed it, but it appears that even those who didn't believe it were not attacking it or calling it "heresy."

Codex Bezae

Codex Bezae

Study of the Greek Texts Supports Universalism

Finally, I've come to believe that scriptures that seem to teach eternal punishment can be viewed as either mistranslations or misinterpretations. I base this belief on the opinions of certain highly esteemed Greek scholars such as William Barclay, who wrote a wildly popular series of commentaries on the books of the New Testament, and discusses his own Universalist beliefs in his book William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography.

I also base this conviction on my own study of Greek, which I've studied for several years, including formally for two years at the University of Tennessee (although my mastery of Greek is insignificant when compared with William Barclay's formidable expertise on the subject).

The word that is consistently translated as "eternal," for example, is the Greek adjective "aionios," derived from the noun "aion," which is best translated as "a span of time" "an age." An "age" typically denotes a lengthy yet finite period of time. "Aionios," as an adjective based on that noun "aion, "need not carry greater weight than the noun it was based upon.

If we take the English noun "day," for example, and turn it into the adjective "daily," then "daily" suggests the same time frame. A daily shower would not refer to a shower taken every week or every year, but every day. So perhaps a better translation of "aionios" would be "age-lasting" or "pertaining to an age."

A number of respected early Christian writers described "aionios" punishment or fire as God's way to eventually bring the punished souls back into fellowship with himself! Such uses of the term "aionios punishment" would make no sense if the term refers to punishment with no end. Additionally, such references to an end of hell's punishments for the individual were often made without much explanation by the authors, which would suggest that ancient readers would not have noticed a linguistic or theological contradiction that would demand further explanation.

William Barclay, in his book William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, says that "aionios" denotes something that pertains to God, and the word for "punishment" (that is, the Greek word "kolasis"), which originally meant to prune trees, never denotes anything but remedial discipline. Thus, according to Barclay, the Greek terms which we have generally translated as "eternal punishment" are better thought of as meaning "that remedial/corrective punishment which God, and God alone, is fit to give."

Returning to what I discussed in the second section of this article, if eternal life is "eternal" because it is the quality of a life lived in communion with the Eternal, then the opposite of eternal life is "the quality of a life that is not lived in communion with the Eternal," rather than "torment of an eternal duration."

So I've shown how Christian scriptures, Universalism's seemingly orthodox status for hundreds of years in the early church, and the Christian conception of God all support the doctrine of Universalism, as well as how scriptures that seem to contradict it may seem to do so because of misinterpretation.

For these reasons, and for many other reasons I haven't discussed in this article, I believe that a Christian perspective invites a belief in universal salvation far more than it invites a belief in the salvation of only some. Due to the potential psychological and social impact of the widely proclaimed doctrine of eternal torment, I urge not only those of you who call yourselves Christians but even those of you who aren't religious to closely examine these issues, lest we allow a dangerous error to continue thriving.


The author lovingly dedicates this article to the memory of two dear friends: Gary Amirault, who passed from this world on November 3rd, 2018, and his wife, Michelle Amirault, who preceded him in death on July 31st, 2018. Gary and Michelle lived their lives passionately in love with Love and on behalf of Love. Indeed, this article would likely have never come to be were it not for Gary and Michelle's love.

Gary and Michelle tirelessly promoted what they called the "Victorious Gospel," otherwise known as Christian Universalism or Universal Reconciliation. In short, they proclaimed to the world that "Love Wins." Tentmaker Ministries is one of their most enduring legacies and can still be found easily online.

Far more importantly, however, Gary and Michelle were both the embodiment of the kind of relentless love that they preached. They were the warmest, kindest, most hospitable people I have ever known. I believe that anyone who was graced with knowing them personally would say exactly the same thing.

Questions & Answers

Question: If we think we may go to a place where we suffer for our own sins, then we are saying, "Jesus, Your work was not complete." I am a born again Christian and I have no fear of death. Death, where is your sting? You must trust His work was complete, and it is for you as well. Don't you think so?

Answer: Yes, I completely agree with you!

© 2010 Justin Aptaker


Kevin Hornsby on June 19, 2020:

I am confused. If you believe that everyone will eventually be saved, what about the scriptural view of salvation by faith? Or are you saying that salvation is available in two ways (1) Salvation by faith in Jesus (2) Salvation through some form of purgatory/good works. And if this is the case: what is the advantage of faith in Christ and why bother evangelising? And finally what about judgement and punishment. Surely a holy God must punish sin - but what and how is this accomplished in universalism doctrine. Won’t universalism taken to an extreme result in people living as evil a life as they want based on the fact they will eventually be saved?

HollyH333 on January 08, 2020:

Hello Justin, I'm new to your website. I want to thank you for the info you provided on the history and scriptures that support this belief. I started believing in ultimate reconciliation of "all" about 15 yrs ago. It was gradual. I feel it makes every since. It reveals the true heart of God. I didn't know what to call it until I discovered Tent Makers Ministry. Sad about Gary and his wife. My former pastor taught reconciliation of "all" but after 10 years in his church announced he was gay, divorced his wife, married another man and still has a ministry. That brought a lot of confusion and hurt to many. There was pastor worship also. That was about 6 yrs ago, since then moved on and moved back to my home state. I have been searching on line for as many as I can who believe and teach this belief. Unfortunately there is not that many. Plus you find those opposed. I have found and listen to a few men who are connected to each other like Paul Young, who wrote "The Shack". There's also a website called The Total Victory In Christ. It's very good but there's not a name attached to the speaker. have you seen this and do you know who this man is ?

Julio Ruata on September 11, 2019:

i have been reading and studying Unilateralism but it does not makes any sense to me or I don't understand God. He took the sin of the world John 1:29, He will draw all men John 12:32 He is the Savior of all men 1 Tim 4:8 many other scriptures. If God did all that on the Cross, why men still practicing sin(s) Why, A loving God his creation to destroy themselves and others.I understand that the Ecclesiastical System is crooked but there are a lots of brothers and sisters trap and they need deliverance from God.

cw on August 27, 2019:

You should have included the option, "I don't know", in your survey about hell.

Justin Aptaker (author) from United States on August 17, 2019:

Hi Tony,

Thank you for clarifying. My father leans towards the same beliefs that you just stated.

I wanted to mention that I've made some very significant changes to this article over just the last few days. I'd really enjoy hearing any additional thoughts you may have about this newly-revised version. Of course, time is a scarce resource, so I'll completely understand if you can't fit that into your schedule. I just wanted to let you know about it though, since you've contributed some thoughtful discussion thus far.

Thank you again.


Tony Muse from Texas, USA on August 15, 2019:

Hi Justin.

Sort of. The Bible speaks of two resurrections; one for the righteous and the second for the wicked. According to scripture, the wicked will be raised for judgment.


Justin Aptaker (author) from United States on August 15, 2019:


Hi Tony,

Thank you for your feedback. Your position sounds to me like it strongly resembles option #4 above: "Bad people, when they die, simply cease to exist. Good people live eternally in heaven." Your position adds the additional nuance of annihilation for "those who don't accept Christ", but aside from that point, it sounds like you're saying something very similar to option 4. Please let me know if I'm off base by thinking that.

Again, thank you for contributing your thoughts here!

Much love,

- Justin

Tony Muse from Texas, USA on July 22, 2019:

There is actually a seventh option that I would have chosen if it were available. I believe that the "fires of hell" snuff out the existence of those who don't accept Christ or who those have lived an wicked life. The book of Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "eternal fire". Obviously, those cities are not still burning today, but the fire that consumed them was eternal in its results; permanent. Do I believe that God makes people suffer for eternity? No.

Also, Jesus did come so that ALL might be saved. Salvation is a free gift, but one still has to accept that free gift.


Daniel Bovee on July 15, 2019:

To me the Lord, by His Holy Spirit, has made the understanding of this topic very simple and plain. Most professing Christians believe in an eternal, literal, blazing, burning hell or lake of fire for all of those who have not or do not truly repent of their sins and are truly converted before they die. They claim that after physical death there is no hope for the lost and unrepentant. So, this must mean that the price, penalty or payment for sin is eternal damnation in a literal, blazing, burning hell or lake of fire.

Here is a question that, up to this point, no theologian or Bible scholar has been able to answer with any degree of of scholarly wisdom or knowledge: "If the payment, price or penalty for sin is an eternal damnation in a literal, blazing, burning hell or lake of fire, did Jesus Christ pay that price?" Almost all professing Christians believe that Jesus paid the price for sin. If the eternal damnation in a literal, blazing, burning hell or lake of fire is the price for sin, then why isn't Jesus now being tormented and tortured in this eternal, literal, blazing, burning hell or lake of fire?

Here is the Biblical Truth: Jesus DID PAY THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS. HE DIED! "For the WAGES (price, payment, penalty) OF SIN IS DEATH....." (Romans 6:23) It is not eternal damnation is some literal, blazing, burning hell or lake of fire. No, so-called, theologian, scholar, preacher or teacher has ever been able to adequately answer this apparent doctrinal dilemma, from the Bible, when they have been confronted with the above asked question. They have either ignored the question or they have given ridiculous answers that really do not answer the question at all.

It is time for professing Christians to forsake the carnal ramblings and fleshly interpretations and translations of the original Scripture manuscripts and put their trust and confidence in THE LIVING TRUTH (Jesus Christ) AND THE LIVING WORD (Jesus Christ) WHO IS THE PERFECT AND TOTAL EXPRESSION OF THE WRITTEN WORD (The Bible in its original form from the Hebrew and Greek languages). We will never find any doctrinal TRUTH outside of the LIFE OF THE LIVING TRUTH AND THE LIVING WORD. JESUS CHRIST IS OUR PERFECT LIVING EXAMPLE AND EXPRESSION OF ALL DOCTRINAL TRUTH.

In this day of extreme Christian apostasy I have found that most professing Christians will easily toss Jesus aside in favor of their religious traditions of doctrinal heresies and carnal desires to make sure that every unrepentant person, in this short lifetime, gets their eternal damnation punishment. Nothing less than this will satisfy their evil desire to see the lost eternally burn and suffer in the flames of hell or the lake of fire for all of eternity.

A few years ago I heard Jack Van Impe, on his weekly television broadcast, actually thanking and praising God that all the lost souls of humanity will suffer and be tormented in the eternal flames of a hellish lake of fire forever. Such sadistic and evil attitudes as this are not from the Lord of Love, grace, forgiveness, kindness and mercy.

Yes, there will certainly be righteous and holy judgment and punishment for the unconverted. But it will be for the purpose of bringing every human being to true Godly repentance and correction. Just as a loving parent will correct his/her children through some sort of punishment or chastisement, so does the Lord. All of His judgments are remedial and corrective in nature.

"HE WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL". (Ephesians 1:11) Most professing Christians believe that it is the Lord's will and desire to save all people. Will He succeed or fail? Is He Sovereign and Omnipotent? Or is He weak and in humbling subjection the supposed free will of puny and carnal man?

The Bible says that the "LORD IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD AND THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN". (John 4:42 and 1 Timothy 4:10) Is He really the Savior of the world and all men? Or is He just a "POTENTIAL SAVIOR" as the modern day apostate church proclaims Him to be? The evil and childish prattle that is spewed forth from the mouths of the carnal preachers and teachers of our day and times is almost unbearable to listen to.

Well, I have said enough. May the good Lord bless each and everyone who the Lord brings to the knowledge of truth and who honors Christ as He deserves to be honored. Thank you for your time and patience with me.

HNN on June 14, 2019:

you should go to to hear Gods' Word and get understanding. Confusion is not of God. We tend to sometimes make things more harder than they are. The truth is revealed when you can also realize that Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us when He leaves. He did. He will show you all things and bring to your remembrance what Jesus said and the Word of God. We need not for any man to teach us because of this. God gives us revelation.

Mikey on May 06, 2019:

Jesus Christ you theologians are nuts

Mark on February 18, 2019:

The bible is clear don't believe the false teaching that you can live however you want and escape the fire and eternal burning in hell. Jesus spoke twice as much about hell as He did about heaven. He did this to warn us so that we would not end up there. Read revelation 20: 11-15. Nuff said!

Jimkelley1973 on February 07, 2019:

i feel like suicide. i apostated and was given to a reprobate mind, and no matter how much i repent(like esau) the holy spirit is gone. no hope even though i once was saved, my heart hardened. so everyday is like hell, waiting for hell :(((((

Jeff on December 05, 2018:

Great post. I had brief psychotic episode. There were a couple of contributing factors, like I wasn´t eating well and I was spending a lot of time by myself, but without a doubt, the false doctrine of eternal torment was largely to blame.

Thedecadentone on June 01, 2018:

The verses that say such things as "every knee shall bow and tongue confess" are used by people with no sense of timing use to substantiate their claims. God will not force people to bow their knee, which was the whole point of letting us sin in the first place.These things happen once evil, sin, and sinners no longer exist. Remember that the smoke of torment rises forever and ever, day and night, but when the heavens and earth are remade there will be no more night. Until the ages of the ages doesnt mean a billion years times infinity, but was a euphemism like "boy it sure is raining cats and dogs!" The same verbal for eternal fire was also used and in the same context for the purifying fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but it isn't still burning. The trash heap outside israel isn't burning forever either. Worm dieth not and fire is not quenched simply means nothing can put out the fire, but once there is nothing left to burn and purify that will be that. God is the eternal burning purifying fire whose hands and mere presence burns to ash or refines holy and perfect. Lots wife (Genesis 19:26) looked back at the fire and turned into salt; another reference to God's personal intervening in destruction which both obliterates and purifies. It is indeed a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the one true God (Hebrews 10:31).

What is the point of believing in Jesus if everyone gets a glorified body and lives forever? Jesus would have died for our sins and that would be the end of it. Jesus died for all, but it is everyone's job to accept it and be willing to at least try and sin no more (Gods spirit will soften the heart and change you, so don't worry about feeling inadequate because you can't stop sinning. No one can and that's okay).

Death and hell are concepts, not physical things, so it can't possibly be a physical or magical lake of fire existing somewhere in the multiverse. Cant use the parable of Lazarus and the rich man as it was not a statement about how things are, but a pre existing Jewish parable Jesus altered that seems to have migrated and morphed from Egypt about Oriris showing his mortal father the afterlife where the rich are punished and mourn over how the poor are exalted. There are a variety of Jewish stories, the most famous of which involves the deaths of a rich tax collector named Bar-Ma’Jan (notice in this parable how the rich man is the one with the name) and a poor Torah scholar. The rich man is buried in style, the poor scholar left unmourned. A friend of this scholar is saddened by the contrast, but it's revealed to him in a dream that Bar-Ma’Jan is in torment while the pious friend is in bliss. There are even a story that the rich man is blessed by God and the poor man suffers, separated by a wall instead of a gulf. I'd like to think that's the one Jesus is changing to shame the Pharisees.

John on May 25, 2018:

Hello Thedecadentone

It wasn't my intention... i spoke of ultimate reality... my experience is that he physical world is the tip of the iceberg... but religions are man made.

Thedecadentone on May 24, 2018:

Hello John.

Can I borrow your time machine or peer into your magical crystal ball so that I too can know with 100 % infallible certainty that all there is is the physical world? I would be much obliged.

And no, I'm not going to prove to you God exists because that is not my intention here since you're the one trying to convince others of a negative.

John on May 22, 2018:

Probably not worth mentioning here that someone's belief system is usually entirely dependant on what they were brought up with... Which means there is no ultimate validity to their belief. Belief is security. But it is just belief. And while ultimate reality exists, all religions are entirely man made.

Thedecadentone on May 22, 2018:

The truth is conviction by God and the human heart, not listening to some self righteous jerk screaming fire and brimstone at you. The goal is to spread the knowledge of God and his love, not judge and condemn. Satan through Cain and many misled and hurt, hateful humans have spread myth and fallacy everywhere. Death is final for the soul by the way. God has to grant immortality, which he only did for his angels (no excuses when the big G is in front of your face and you get eternal benefits from birth); pagans like the ancient Greeks came up with eternal life for everyone, vengeful suffering for the naughty to help the "good" feel prideful and smug. We know who the father of pride is. Satan, the dragon, who let his job consume him and led a rebellion. I hope we do get to judge angels, because I'm sure a lot of them deserve to be pardoned for being tricked by the devil, but I digress.

Hell as pop culture paints it for example is Pagan for death and hell, the pit of fallen angels, all of it is burned in the fire and purifying brimstone of gods righteousness where sin is utterly destroyed at a glance (hence why even Moses could only see the father's back for a brief moment which caused his hair to go white and to have so much second hand glory shining off him that the Israelites couldnt even look at him for a while). Repeat scriptures state that all are judged differently, souls die in the fire, and people have "a part" in the lake where only Satan and his angels will suffer much longer as gods fiery purifying brimstone wrath takes care of their volunteer decepotion and evil. The punishment falls on where it is due for God is more righteous and loving than most can comprehend. Even then suffering for a trillion years times infinity is not likely even for them as the bible states that WE judge people and angels, which would be pointless if the book of life already tells us who is damned to eternal torture or not. Notice there are several translated as "eternal" this and that, and fires stated in the bible that are not burning forever, but could not be externally put out until their job was done.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth only pertains to those who will not be ruling and reigning over this flawed earth with Jesus for the thousand year millennial kingdom, ie resurrected saints will be judging even israelites for sin, which is how satan will be able to recruit people at the battle of Armageddon by painting Jesus as a tyrant alien ruler with an army of holier than thou immortal "zombies". Rule and reign, or be ruled and reigned over, get the benefits of long life, health, and peace, but still gnash your teeth because the guy down the street gets to work and hang out with Abraham and Moses while your faithfulness is only enough to push heavenly paperwork for the next thousand years when your were expecting much better. Kind of scary that our movies, Internet and such, if uncovered would be just the fuel Satan needs to show humanity we can exist without Jesus forcing his righteousness on man. By that time who knows how many billions will be on earth where there is peace and health and Methusaleh like lifespans (bible says that during the kingdom reign a hundred years is still childhood). Daniel says only some will be brought to life, not all, and many of those to eternal damnation or eternal life, inferring that the majority will like animals simply be obliterated. They got to enjoy the benefits of their own free will, and the cost is death.

A hateful, eternally vengeful God is the Devils work knowing that in this age of scientific reason more billions will be born rejecting god and religion entirely than in all other ages combined, satisfying atheist hopes of ceasing to exist when they die so the devil can get a few seconds to look smug as they join him for a little swim. Universalism requires too many interpretations that don't have enough evidence to back up, but eternal suffering is the Devils bread and butter. He's supposed to convict and try the hearts of men, but sadly he's gone off the reservation so to speak.

BobC on May 13, 2018:

The scripture (God’s eternal Word to mankind) clearly states that there is unforgivable sin, the rejection of Jesus as Messiah, the only begotten Son of our living God. Twisting scripture to make it fit with a personal belief is apostasy and sin.

mikezieg8 on May 13, 2018:


So what does God do with those who do not love Him with all their hearts?

Will He make them love Him in heaven?

So all those who love & hate Him will be together?

Sheep & goats together?

mikezieg8 on May 13, 2018:


So will Lucifer return from his fallen state & return to his original state with God?

God is love. Right?

He did the greatest thing anyone could do for mankind. He died .

The greatest love.

Noone can love like He does unless we let Him. Are we willing to come to Him to receive His love. Many will not. They hate God.

Freewill to be with Him or not to. To be with Him for eternity.

I chose to receive that eternal love in 1980..

So if you dont receive it then what?

mikezieg8 on May 12, 2018:

So is Hitler with Jesus now?

Is not God a just God?

Can God be just and loving?


Bend OR

A Freeman Wood from Kentucky on April 21, 2018:

I am 38 years old and have been studying the Bible since I can remember reading. Despite the fact I could “many verses I really had little or no understanding of the message.

About five years ago the idea of love became stuck in my head and samples but slowly things seem to make sense. But I always had a problem with a loving God creating mankind only to burn The majority eternal fire.

In fact it bothered me so much that I decided eat ternal punishment somehow must be a separation from God. That is to say that those unworthy of heaven simply died with no chance of afterLife.

Although I wanted to believe my own theory it also has no evidence and I was never satisfied. Then, about six months ago I read the book Lilith by George McDonald. I didn’t know what to make of it the first time around but stuck with me and I reread it a second time then a third. It is a fiction but promotes the idea of universal salvation. This concept was completely new and unheard of to me and looking on Wikipedia I found that like you it was a main part of Christian theology. I do not confess to believe in it But I certainly have no right to deny it.

I will admit that it makes perfect sense to me and believing that the central message of the Bible is nothing but love almost perfectly fits in to my religious philosophy. After having these new thoughts constantly swirling in my head scripture that I read 20 years ago and did not understand seem to make sense and I feel I have had profound revelations in the understanding of my faith. I think it is an absolutely beautiful, even the most beautiful theology I have ever heard and with each passing day it seems like all my years of study have led to this point of understanding.

My only argument is the straightforward language of the New Testament and the multiple references to hell of eternal suffering. I seen your rebuttal for the Greek translation But believing that the words are divinely inspired I have trouble believing God would allow his word, which is our only study guide, to be misrepresented in such a way that some of the very founding principles of our guidebook are deceptive. Would God allow those only familiar with creek study To read the the “right” bible While everybody else is left with false scripture? I always believed when Solomon said take these words and write them on the tablet of your heart and meditate on them night and day, it was literal And applied not only to proverbs but the entire Bible. If it did not apply to all holy scripture then it would seem as though Solomon was placing an order of importance or favoritism from one book to the next.

If anyone has had similar thoughts or may offer an explanation to my problem I would humbly thank you because this has been plaguing me and because I believe the Bible does not contradict itself regardless of what language has been translated into The fault lies and my lack of understanding or to put it the way I honestly believe God has not chosen to reveal this to me yet,

eva on June 22, 2017:

Thank you for this. I too suffered terribly as I wrestled with a doctrine that my God given conscience rejected wholeheartedly. This information brings a measure of peace.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on December 01, 2013:

@One way, It is not "death and hell". It is death and the unseen, meaning the state of the grave. The Lake of Fire is the same Fire found in 1Cor 3, and in Heb 12:29. You hell believers need to seek the spiritual truth in scripture instead of your carnal minded, literal view and understanding of your false interpretations of the bible. You may be amazed as to what you find.

One way on December 01, 2013:

I would agree that hell does not last an eternity .... Because hell is the waiting place for the souls of sinful men before judgement as is paradise the waiting place for the righteous to await judgement... Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire ... The lake of fire is the eternal torment promised to sinful man as heaven is the eternal home of peace for righteous men...rev 20:10 helps us to understand that the lake of fire is forever and ever

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on July 05, 2013:

It brings me great joy when I see believers starting to understand the true nature of God, and discarding that pagan belief about hell.

Electro-Denizen from UK on July 05, 2013:

Well done for having the spiritual strength/integrity to step away from this idea of eternal Hell! In the original Greek, the word 'hell' doesn't even appear in Jesus' words, ever, in scripture - unbelievable but true. Check out the Catholic theologian Miceal Ledwith whose spent a life time of study on these subjects. Whole ministries are founded on ludicrous translations.

The idea of Hell comes from ancient Sumerian texts, Zoroastrian and of course Egyptian. In Zoroastrianism, their savior even comes from a virgin birth, incidentally...

After dying, everyone goes through times of assessing actions and so on, before progressing, and some people may even reside in strange hell-like places because of their own mind attachments. But other than that? Eternal Hell in the Christian tradition is hugely influenced by traditions that predate Christ by, in some cases, two thousand years.

The concept of Hell really appeals to people, because it's so visceral and is a great form of control!

PAMITCHRUS on June 13, 2013:

Japtaker great hub, and welcome to the truth of the Savior of the World !!!! Remembering always that this teaching of hell is the doctrine of devils and demons for God is Love and Love is not Hate !!!!

Ian on May 10, 2013:

A few words for those Christians who are so certain the Bible literally teaches eternal damnation.

'Everlasting' 'Forever and ever' : what do these terms mean? If you study a Strong's concordance you might become confused. The word for 'everlasting' in the hebrew doesn't mean 'without end'. It actually means 'until the designated or pre-ordained time is ended'. For example, there's a verse that says that Jonah was in the belly of fish forever, but the word used for forever actually meant that Jonah was in the belly of the fish for a pre-determined measure of time: actually 3 days. Jonah wasn't going to be released from the belly of the fish a moment sooner than the time allotted. That's what 'forever' actually means. The same holds true for 'everlasting'.

Another example is the verse that states that the smoke of Sodom and Gommorah's destruction ascends forever. It ascends until the allotted pre-determined time for it to ascend is over, and not a moment sooner. This concept appears again and again in the Bible, where the 'infinite' is seemingly applied to the 'finite', except that the 'infinite' is a misinterpretation. 'Until God says it will stop', is another way of looking at it.

Another mistranslation is the word 'unquenching' or 'unquenchable'. This should be quite obvious. This word in the original language means 'cannot be quenched', as in 'man cannot put it out, but it will burn until the job is done' . Again, 'until God puts it out' when the job of burning is done.

In this light, 'hellfire' and 'the lake of fire' can be temporal rather than eternal.

All this is to say, that even if Universalism is not true, 'Annihilationism' is likely the correct concept. Paul talks about man 'perishing' for his sin, the 'wages' of sin is 'death'. Death and Perish here, quite plainly mean 'destruction'. Destruction can never be eternal except that the results are eternal. In this sense, the conclusion of Sodom is eternal, not it's 'ascending smoke'. Sodom is 'eternally' destroyed. The sinner is 'eternally' dead. Paul, the writer of 3/4 of the New Testament teachers 'eternity in hell' not one single time. The only time he even mentions hell is when he talks about Christ's victory over it.

Then there those who will say the OT teaches there is a literal hell. I defy all commenters to show me where. In every single case that the word 'hell' shows in the OT, it is without exception the word 'sheol', which NEVER means hell. It ALWAYS means 'grave' , 'place of the dead', 'abode of the dead'. The latter has NO sense of it being an 'abode' of dead in conscious torment. Time and time again in Psalms and elsewhere in the OT, sheol is described as a place where there is no conscious thought or feeling, no mental awareness of anything. The word 'hell' was applied to 'sheol' most erroneously by the english translators. The OT absolutely does NOT teach an eternal hell.

Some will say, but didn't hell swallow up the rebels. NO, the grounds swallowed them up. Also, wherever fire from God consumed the living (old and new testaments), it was always temporal--they were burnt almost instantly.

Come one, come all and refute anything I've said. But only if you grab your Strong's concordance.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on August 17, 2012:

Thanks Anon I feel bad actually for Judah's Daughter. She fights for the mythical doctrine of hell over the ultimate saving grace of ALL mankind through Jesus Christ. Unfortunately she is not alone, too many have been brought into slavery to a doctrine which totally undermines God's love to bring people under the will of their church doctrine and enslave them in fear.

There is a new movie called hellbound coming out and I am not sure if the director is even a Christian but this topic has been heating up (excuse the pun) and it's not going away.

I take pleasure in the fact people are becoming wise to the scare tactics of the mainstream church and thinking for themselves through researching the bible's original translation and meaning.

Just think if hell loses it's grip on people how many people will leave "religion" and run to Jesus no matter how guilty they feel without being forced by intimidation.

Anon on August 16, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43, I agree 100% with your comment about Judah's Daughter....she most definitely IS one of those that hinder people from coming to Christ!!

SeanPurple on June 20, 2012:

I am tottaly a new fan of this blog! I love blogs and am glad to find a place where i will speak about those things!

seo company

KierstinTree on June 20, 2012:

This is the precise weblog for anybody who wants to find out about this topic. You understand so much its nearly arduous to argue with you (not that I really would want…HaHa). You positively put a brand new spin on a subject thats been written about for years. Great stuff, simply great!


SwordofManticorE from Burlington on June 20, 2012:

@Japtaker, It is good that the true gospel is being taught once again. Let it never be hijacked again by false teachings of eternal torment.

Carneades-Georgia from Augusta, Georgia on June 08, 2012:

Admit that Yahweh-Yeshua speaks ever with a forked tongue: note all the contradictions in the Bible and its contradictions to reality anyway! Yahweh would have no divine right of divinity anyway to demand worship and a relationship with Him as Fr. Meslier's hub notes.

Misanthropes just made up the entire anthology from their whims!

All religious experience is merely ones own mind at work, and to postulate Him behind it,begs the question!

The unsubstantiated arguments from happiness-purpose and from angst actually make for Lamberth's non-genetic argument that theists themselves in effect affirm our naturalistic arguments about why they believe!

Reason saves, not that forever dead Galilean cult leader who disvalued reason with the demand for logicide- faith and telling his sheep to love him more than others.

By the way, the divine protection racket shows hate,not love!

THWLE from Illinois on May 26, 2012:

Hell is the easiest of all CAM (my acronym for the Currently Accepted Message of modern Christianity) to debunk. When put to the test, it fizzles out and disappears with ease.

In my opinion, it is not even the most important issue. I know it is a popular topic because most CAM members ARE SO because they simply want to escape hell.

Where I see that the CAM has it all wrong is in making the assumption that the gift of eternal life is a noun type of a gift. The CAM says that it is something that can either be accepted or rejected due to ones choice of whether or not to believe in Jesus, etc.

The gift is not a noun. The gift was the action of Christ. His action is what changed things. The covenant He made was with God on behalf of mankind. He presented His blood as payment for man's sin, and God accepted it.

Whether or not you believe that to be true does not matter. Can your disbelief nullify the will of God?

The pinpoint start of the difference between the CAM and myself is the issue of belief. Belief was simply one more requirement added to the many, many others that Jesus mentioned. Belief, just as the other requirements, was a pre-cross requirement... and no one, not even the disciples who walked with Him day in and day out, could not believe to the extent that the law required. (see John 16) If they could have believed then they would have not needed the grace given at the cross. Remember in John 5, Jesus said that if anyone believed, he or she would have passed from death to life already?

Jesus taught many requirements including the new requirement of belief, which could not have existed until His arrival. On the other hand, God, as prophesied by Isaiah, BLINDED everyone so that they could not believe! Hmmmmm..... So Jesus says believe or else... then God blinds them so they cannot. This is obviously a hint of something deeper.

Paul figured it out when he said that they were all committed to disbelief so that Jesus could have mercy on us all.

The law, including the law of belief, disqualified everyone beyond the shadow of any doubt so that we would know that we could not earn eternal life.... so that the only way we could have it is through the action of Christ that provided it to us all. (Romans 5:6-21)

Now I know most of the CAM says that all requirements were nullified at the cross, EXCEPT for belief. The punchline of parable of the rich man and Lazarus was EVEN IF SOMEONE RISES from the DEAD, they will STILL NOT BELIEVE! Not to the extent that the law required. Remember, even if you look at that man or woman and think about "it" you have already done "it". Belief WITHOUT DOUBT was the requirement.

All of mankind was put on one side of the equation and Jesus on the other. On the day of judgment (the day of the cross) the one with sin was punished, and those without were given eternal life. This is what I call the Big Switch. He balanced the equation and cancelled our sin debt with God through love... the love that even the CAM calls Unconditional... that is, without condition or any requirement.

He bought us with a price, like a man who sold everything He had to buy the field (all of creation) to gain the treasure hidden therein (all of us). This whole story is about His love for us and how He wanted to prove it to us... not because He had to, or someone asked Him to, but because HE IS IN LOVE WITH US!!! It was never to guilt us into trying to show and prove our love for Him.

The blood of Jesus satisfied God... why are those in the CAM not satisfied with it?

CalledToPreach from Indiana on May 03, 2012:

Something came to my mind today as I was thinking about this hub - Remember when Jesus said about the rich man - 'What would it profiteth a man, go gain the whole world and lose his soul?'. If our eternal destiny for all is heaven, then we can gain the whole world and still have our soul.

Thank you JD - sorry for the delay in reply, I have enjoyed reading your hubs and so glad to have you on my list. I agree we are in this together sister, stay strong and may Jesus continue to bless your ministry and give you even greater knowledge, wisdom and guidance in all you do.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 29, 2012:

CalledToPreach, I appreciate your ministry here and that also, of Sold Out to Jesus. We are all in this together for the glory of our LORD, Jesus Christ. God bless you.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 29, 2012:

japtaker, you're very welcome. You know I'm participating because this a very important topic you've written about and I believe God will get the glory all the way around. Heart to heart ~ JD.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 29, 2012:

You're right, AEQUANIMITAS43, Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, for the world is condemned already ~ He came to save that which was lost, to all who will believe on His name. His first coming was to save; His second will be to judge.

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

CalledToPreach from Indiana on April 29, 2012:

that last question JD is a good one. Why the separation by Christ Himself?

Sheep and goats - One is welcomed into the Kingdom and the other into everlasting fire.

Wheat and chaff - one gets harvested, the other burned up.

I can understand the argument on a few things where its a translation issue, like eternity (I believe was the word you said isn't found). But these verses, unless there is a translation issue that you are arguing about - need to be taken seriously and as truth. They are in the Infallible Word of God and everything in it is to be believed and upheld.

I agree with AEQUANIMITAS though in the fact it is really hard to show majority of people that Hell does not exist. We all 3 will know soon if it does, because we are in the End Times and now is the time to Repent and come fully back to Him. Some may say it's a sick perverted view of God to believe in a Hell, but its not OUR teaching, its not my pastors teaching - its in the Word of God. The Infallible Word, and we can't help but believe in it.

If there is no Hell, awesome because those friends that mock God and say He don't exist and do things in spite of Him - will be in Heaven.

If Hell does exist, awesome because I know I am right with God and obey His Word. But feel for those that never believed in it or spitefully mocked Him.

Justin Aptaker (author) from United States on April 29, 2012:

Oh, and thank you, Judah's daughter, for your participation and for your encouragement as well. I thought I'd told you already, but reviewing my comments, it seems that I hadn't.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 29, 2012:

Nope not doing this anymore.

Your pagan ideology stems from the Catholic dogma from 550 AD. I am not going to convince you after 2 solid days of writing that which totally refutes your sick perverted image of God. Nor after 2 years of you debating others in this manner. So we agree to disagree. Jesus came into the world to save the world he came not to condemn the world but to give it life more abundant. You will not be convinced otherwise so I will not address you on these matters anymore.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 29, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43, The land of Sodom and Gomorrah is no longer, the people that lived in the land are the ones judged. Same thing with the city [i.e. Capernaum] whose judgment will be worse in the 'Day of judgment' - it's about the people, not the land. And yes, there are levels of torment, based on these scriptures.

Enoch was the seventh son of Adam, and lived while Adam yet lived. His book talks a lot about hell, so just because the book was removed from the canon by the coucils 200 years after Christ's death does not mean it was not known.

Don't get into 'judging lest you be judged'. This is about those who practice the very things they are judging others for - hypocrisy. We are to judge, especially amongst the brethren (1 Cor 6). Consider how Paul told the Church at Corinth to turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the 'flesh' so that his soul 'may' be saved in the last day (1 Cor 5:5).

Weak rebuttal about for ever [aion] and ever [aion], so yes, let's move on.

Obviously, you did not read John 11:13-14, so I will type them here: "12The disciples said, 'Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!' They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died. So He told them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead'." You have understanding as limited as the disciples and don't want to believe that 'sleeping' here means 'dead'.

Eleazar is not Lazarus, and whether or not you view Lazarus as a picture of the Gentiles or not is only a matter of interpreting the 'symbolism' you so long to attribute to what you call a 'parable'. The word 'parable' is not in the Greek language, prefacing this account. And, it has nothing to do with being monetarily rich or poor, but the attitude of the heart.

You stated, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.' NO MENTION OF JESUS IN THIS NOT ONE!!!"

Obviously, you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh, do you? John 8:24 " unless you believe that I AM [Ego Eimi], you will die in your sins." 1 Cor 12:3 "no one can say, 'Jesus is Yehovah [LORD],' except by the Holy Spirit."

What does loving your enemies mean? It means "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." I will tell you the Truth, even if you 'hate' it or me; even if you're an angry Adversary that seeks to chop off my head.

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate [love less] his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

God loved us enough to come to us in His Word made flesh to be hated and crucified. He did His part, yet those who reject this sacrifice and choose another (i.e. purification through the 'lake of fire') nullify it ~ make it void:

Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify [atheteo - I annul, make of no effect, set aside, ignore, slight; I break faith with] the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Thus we understand better Mark 14:24 (NLT) "And He said to them, 'This is My blood, which confirms the covenant between God and His people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many." And, John 10:11 "I AM [Ego Eimi] the good Shepherd. The good Shepherd sacrifices His life for the sheep." (Ref Ps 23:1 - the LORD is my Shepherd).

Are all sheep? If so, then why a separation between the 'sheep and the goats'? (Mat 25:33).

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 29, 2012:

My last sentence in the above blog was a typo

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 29, 2012:

Wow Judah you have jumped around once again like a rabbit on a hot plate.

Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment is not finished, according to Jesus in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

Oh so it is more tolerable? So God just doesn't throw everything in one pond and all torment for ever and ever? Sounds like there are judgements that are more tolerable than others how can a burning lake be tolerable at all? I know BECAUSE IT'S NOT LITERAL!!!!

My point was Sodom is not burning now and yet the scriptures as you read for face value is that Sodom is burning Eternally but it's not the correct interpretation of eternity. You still can't explain why Sodom isn't burning right now but you say it's eternally burning do you realize there are people in padded rooms saying things are on fire when they clearly are not?

You said:

We don't know where Adam is, frankly. They, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were judged according to the flesh, just as we are; however, there is yet the final judgment coming. Adam and Eve obviously repented of their sin and raised their children accordingly. We read that Cain killed Abel, so we can assume Abel is favored (saved) and Cain condemned. Seth was godly, just as Abel. I state again, the Bible doesn't say the condition of Adam's faith when he died.

Let me ask you this. When Adam and Cain sinned and did God EVER tell them they would burn forever in a pit? NO!!! NOT ONCE!!! Read again what God said to Adam after he sinned and then read what God said to Cain. Did Cain say this is to much for me to bear? Really? He could not bear the judgement laid upon him in this life and God never mentioned Hell or a pit of torment in the next waiting for him saying if you can't bear this just wait until the afterlife? You think it would be something he would have mentioned since he was on the subject of judgement? Ok so you have no idea if Adam went to hell or Cain went to hell since the bible doesn't mention it and you go on to judge other characters in the bible we don't assume anything does not the bible say judge no lest you be judged? Now you are picking and choosing who goes to the mythical hell? Adam doesn't Cain did and yet NO MENTION OF IT IN THE BIBLE. NOT ONCE DID GOD MENTION CAIN WENT TO HELL NOR ADAM NOR SAUL NOR GOLIATH NOT ONE!!!! You think if it was true God would have mentioned it to Adam? To Cain?

You said

It's interesting that you left out the rest of my comment about 'no rest day or night forever [aion] and ever' [aion], when you compare it to "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Heb 1:8).

I used the example about how the word ages or age can be used to denote time and still have different measures of time but you are ignoring it so let's move on.

You said:

You obviously believe in soul sleep, just as the SDA's. John 11:13-14 tells his disciples that 'sleep' means 'died'. "Lazarus is dead." Jesus told Martha in John 11:26, "'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.'" So, this cannot be talking about physical life, but spiritual life.

Jesus even said when raising Lazarus that he was not dead but asleep is this once again so hard for you to understand? Yes Jesus was raised from the dead in 3 days did he promise you he would raise you up in 3 days after you had died? NO

You said:

We can see in what you call a 'parable', which depicts a heavenly Truth, that both the rich man and Lazarus (a Jewish name, by the way - ref John 11:1) physically died, yet there was a consciousness/conversation between the rich man and Abraham. The rich man was in the grave having this conversation? "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment" (Luke 16:23). Again, he was not told he would be rescued at some future point, once he had finished paying for his sin.

Over and Over again I have proven this is not a story of a man in a real hell burning somewhere but you are stiff necked in you beliefs. The rich man didn't give to the poor and died and went to hell. Is there any scriptures to prove this to be true??? What is the basis for salvation? Being Rich? Helping a beggar at a gate? What is the basis of salvation being a beggar? In your LITERAL interpretation the man was rich and didn't help a beggar so deserved hell and Lazarus was a beggar so he hung out in paradise with Abraham. It's the most absurd assumption you can make. If I light you on fire can I carry on a conversation with you? Can we talk about why you are tormented? Or would you be screaming so loud you wouldn't even notice I was there. And am I walking in perfect love while I'm burning you? Would any sane person view me as good? NO!!! And yet you view God as good who does such a thing. And yet this rich man who we know nothing about is in torment in hell having a nice conversation with Abraham while this poor guy received these great blessings because he was poor. Does that make sense you to? Is Jesus saying something totally different than what you perceive it to be? Jesus was using this parable to teach the rich man (Judah) who was in torment (spiritual torment) ignored ( Jesus) so the gentiles (poor beggars) received the good things. I won't repeat this one again since you refuse to listen.

You said:

Again, Hades and Gehenna are not the same 'hell'. Even the angels who sinned in the days of Noah are incarcerated in 'the deepest abyss of Hades' (Tartarus), reserved for the final judgment (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6) of Gehenna.

I explained and defined Tartarus to you and you once again ignored it. Tartarus is a mythical place noted in the Book of Enoch. Paul used it to explain judgement. The book of Enoch was a fairy tale do you believe in the pagan book of Enoch over Gods word? If I told you to run the race faster than anyone even if you are ahead lest like the turtle and the hare you become prideful and lazy and allow the turtle to overtake you do you start taking the story literally? Was there really a race with a hare and a turtle where they talked to each other and made a wager? No! But I still can use it as an example in a story. Still not getting it I presume.

You said

Since everyone will 'see' and 'confess' Jesus as LORD at the judgment, are they then saved by that confession? THAT has nothing to DO with FAITH (not seeing, yet believing). The demons believe and obviously confessed who Jesus was, and tremble (James [Jacob] 2:19). They know there is an appointed time when they will be judged [sentenced] to torment



Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble


Do Demons get judged at an appointed time? YUP and Is it appointed time for men to die once and then comes the judgment? YUP I never said God does not judge I never said it's not gonna be uncomfortable but it doesn't mean eternal torment.

You said:

What is the doctrine that is hardest to endure, leading us to find teachers that will tell us what we want to believe? Hell

Where did you get that? You assume the hardest doctrine to endure is hell? You assume that?

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..."

I can just as well apply this teaching to you. Is sound doctrine include hell when God commands us to love our enemies? Did Jesus say to love one another? If you love me? Does love have anything to do with a hell that people burn in torment for ever and ever?

leading us to find teachers that will tell us what we want to believe?

Actually in my case it was the other way around. I believed those that claimed to know the truth (like you) and realized that people like you never did endure

sound doctrine and wanted to have their

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 29, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43, Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment is not finished, according to Jesus in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

We don't know where Adam is, frankly. They, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were judged according to the flesh, just as we are; however, there is yet the final judgment coming. Adam and Eve obviously repented of their sin and raised their children accordingly. We read that Cain killed Abel, so we can assume Abel is favored (saved) and Cain condemned. Seth was godly, just as Abel. I state again, the Bible doesn't say the condition of Adam's faith when he died.

It's interesting that you left out the rest of my comment about 'no rest day or night forever [aion] and ever' [aion], when you compare it to "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Heb 1:8).

You obviously believe in soul sleep, just as the SDA's. John 11:13-14 tells his disciples that 'sleep' means 'died'. "Lazarus is dead." Jesus told Martha in John 11:26, "'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.'" So, this cannot be talking about physical life, but spiritual life.

Ecc 12:7 states, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." In Luke 23:46 Jesus said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." Stephen prayed in Acts 7:59, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." This is the spirit God breathed into Adam's (man's) nostrils, making him a living soul (Gen 2:7).

If this didn't mean immediate/continued spiritual life at the moment of physical death, explain how Jesus raised Himself from the dead: John 2:19 "in three days I will raise it up."

We can see in what you call a 'parable', which depicts a heavenly Truth, that both the rich man and Lazarus (a Jewish name, by the way - ref John 11:1) physically died, yet there was a consciousness/conversation between the rich man and Abraham. The rich man was in the grave having this conversation? "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment" (Luke 16:23). Again, he was not told he would be rescued at some future point, once he had finished paying for his sin.

He had his chance, just as his five brothers, while alive. How? vs. 29 "'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'....'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Again, Hades and Gehenna are not the same 'hell'. Even the angels who sinned in the days of Noah are incarcerated in 'the deepest abyss of Hades' (Tartarus), reserved for the final judgment (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6) of Gehenna.

Since everyone will 'see' and 'confess' Jesus as LORD at the judgment, are they then saved by that confession? THAT has nothing to DO with FAITH (not seeing, yet believing). The demons believe and obviously confessed who Jesus was, and tremble (James [Jacob] 2:19). They know there is an appointed time when they will be judged [sentenced] to torment.

The demons said to Jesus in Mat 8:29 "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" Obviously, since demons are roaming the earth, doing their 'father's' will (which is God's allowance and for His purpose), they are not in that place/condition of torment yet. Likewise, Heb 9:27 states, "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

What is the doctrine that is hardest to endure, leading us to find teachers that will tell us what we want to believe? Hell. 2 Tim 4:3 tells us "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..." L Ray Smith and

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:

Judah you are hopeless in believing anything but what you believe.

You said

Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed by literal fire and Lot's wife became a pillar of salt. I don't know if the fires of hell (Gehenna) are literal, but that's not for me to determine

It should be for you to determine since the basis of that doctrine is laced in you theology and if it is wrong could it no hinder you or others from loving Christ? Could it cause you to review everything you have ever understood to be true and re-evaluate it?

You posted earlier Sodom's wife is still burning in a fire in Hades now you state it's not for you to determine. You are so inconsistent it's not even funny. I told you that aion has several meanings of time they can explain an age or ages and it doesn't matter to you. You just believe in your pagan hell doctrine.

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever [aion] and ever [aion]; THEY have no rest day and night..." WHO has no 'rest' day and night? And for how long?

How long? Until God is finished that's how long. Sodom burned until God was finished burning it. It's not burning now. Is this so hard for you to conceive? Sodom is not burning now and you cannot understand it? It's not for you to understand?

For ever and ever is not even a correct translation God never even said that in the original text. The example I gave you missed so I'll try again. If I say I have been waiting for you for ages does that not notate a measure of time? Yes but it's not specified how long and If I say God is the God of ages have I not used the same word Ages but used them differently to mean a different indefinite period of time? Same word Ages but different meaning. Do you understand this?

I didn't say I don't want to be challenged. I am saying after 6 posts I wrote regarding hell, Hades, Eternity you won't concede anything and you revealed you have been "refuting" those that would challenge your doctrine for 2 years it is fruitless to go on. you have obviously decided to believe what you believe and nothing would change your mind you can challenge me all day and I can reciprocate but it won't change your stubborn mindset.

You can't explain why Sodom isn't burning now yet according to you it should still be burning since it burns eternally according to what you believe.

Can you explain why Adam isn't in hell since he was the worst sinner who disobeyed God? He who started it all? He who ushered death into the world? He who was given paradise on a silver platter and threw it all away for knowledge? You think that deserves the hell fire torment that you so cling to? And yet the Lord God made him clothes the next day. Is that love? Was judgement placed on Adam? You bet is was but was hell the judgement? Did God burn him up in some pond? NO did Adam go on to populate the earth for like almost 500 years? Yup but if anyone deserved hell for rebelling it surely would be him and yet it didn't happen nor was it ever stated and why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO HELL!!!!

You said

I understand why you would not want to continue debating with me

No you don't you don't understand at all. If you are not teachable why would I want to keep going over the same thing? That's defined as insanity. 2 years no one could teach you anything so my guess is 2 more years you won't be taught anything. You have made up your mind and it won't be changed. So why debate? You have heard it all right? I posted all about hell and fire and defined all those meanings in my last 4 posts and you continue on not mentioning them and throwing other scriptures out as if that was going to change everything.

Ok well Nothing is going to change you I get it so we agree to disagree.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 28, 2012:

If you don't want to be challenged by the Word, AEQUANIMITAS43, I understand why you would not want to continue debating with me. That shows you have a choice (will), doesn't it?

Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed by literal fire and Lot's wife became a pillar of salt. I don't know if the fires of hell (Gehenna) are literal, but that's not for me to determine. Is it perpetual ~ yes, according to what is written. If what is written is false, then whoever changed the scriptures will be accountable before God (Rev 22:18). Rev 4:11 states, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever [aion] and ever [aion]; THEY have no rest day and night..." WHO has no 'rest' day and night? And for how long? If it is temporary, then you'd have to apply the same meaning for "Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Heb 1:8).

I pray God's peace on this subject, and that people would just believe 2 Cor 6:2 "NOW is the day of salvation."

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:


First of all if you have researched an alternate point of view especially for 2 years as you said there probably is no way you can be convinced otherwise so it's no longer profitable for us to continue on this path so this will be my final post directed toward you on the subject of hell fire or torment or any of the other pagan beliefs you hold so dear to your heart.

Point being, one fire consumes to destroy the wicked (Jude 7); the other fire (baptism - consuming) tests and purifies faith (1 Pet 1:7), though it is the same word: Greek 4442 pur.

No!!! One fire does not mean baptism and one mean consuming it's the same fire. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. One more time

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

The word burned here is by a fire so is God burning Christians? No but you believe that he burns the unsaved? All of the sudden it's literal.

As you said you have been refuting Universalism for 2 years so let's just agree to disagree. If you want to believe that Sodom's wife is burning in Hades as we speak which is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard go ahead. I could explain these things all day and night for eons or an eternity and you still wouldn't understand or you refuse to understand whatever the reason it's futile for us to continue debating it. You are one of those that hinder people from coming to Christ and I pity you.

Justin Aptaker (author) from United States on April 28, 2012:

Thank you very much, AEQUANIMITAS43, both for your lively contributions to the conversation on this hub, and for your kind and encouraging words for me. The latter, in particular, really does mean a lot to me.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:


You mentioned in the post above you were not a Christian. As you already know I went through a lot of what you did but I neglected to tell you before I went through what you had I became a Christian and I became a Christian because I searched God on my own. I was not a part of a church nor any denomination. Every day I read the bible and I prayed God would show me his love. I don't know what I was expecting exactly and I didn't know much about Jesus, Anyway I confessed Jesus as my savior at a meeting of Christians and I still didn't really believe. That night I was consumed by the Holy Spirit he bathed me in a warmth I cannot even do justice to the experience and all the things I had read in the bible about the Love of God and Jesus were confirmed in my mind that night not because of me but because of the Holy Ghost. I felt joy beyond anything I had ever experienced and love for people I had never experienced and any fear I had within me was burned away (yes that as of a fire that burns). It was not until I stepped foot into a church where hell and eternal suffering and unforgivable sins were preached did I start to doubt the love of God and become fearful and emotionally a wreck.

Why am I saying all this? Well for 2 reasons. One reason is my experience was different than yours in the respect that because I had that spiritual experience before starting to listening to these doctrines (hell, loss of salvation, relatives in hell etc.) I always still believed. And the second reason is to encourage you to continue your quest to find God. If you are still a seeker as you wrote you were I want to encourage you to seek God in his word and pray Jesus reveals the height, width and depth of his love for you. If you do this as much as possible (not in a religious repetitive way of course) but in a humble way as I did I know Jesus will reveal himself as he did me. Many people who want to lose weight go to the gym and exercise for a week and then give up and say it didn't work. It's the same with seeking Jesus. Many go to church, read the bible and say it didn't work I still don't believe it just doesn't work that way. You may have to be a "seeker" for a while before the Holy Spirit reveals all things to you but it will happen since he does not turn anyone away.

I hope my above experience helps you in your quest to seek and I pray all those lies about eternal torment will flake away that you might see Jesus as he really is. The Savior of the World

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 28, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43, I guess I'm giving a little more than two cents here on this topic...actually, I've spent two years refuting the Universal salvation, there's nothing new under the sun.

From my hub "Refute of Salvation for ALL Doctrine"

"A couple of the passages used by [Universalists] to "prove" that people will be saved through spiritual "fire" is 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Cor 3:13-15. First of all, believers have FAITH; unbelievers do not. These passages have to do with the saved. Let me show here how it's written in the NAS version of the Bible:

1 Peter 1:7 "that is the proof of your FAITH, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"

Translated correctly, this is better understood by the proper typing of the words and punctuation:

"That the trial of your FAITH (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ." (DRB)

1 Cor 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains; he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

The following scriptures help clarify its meaning: Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; and Jude 23.

The interpretation is as follows: A builder whose building (works), not the foundation (his salvation), is consumed by fire, escapes (is snatched out), and thus he suffers the loss of his work (therefore, the loss of his reward-prize). The word it above is the foundation of Jesus Christ in Whom he has his FAITH. He does not lose his salvation, nor does he obtain it by these works.

Eph 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast."


Now, one more comment about the 'all consuming fire' of God okay?

Regarding Sodom & Gomorrah and the deliverance (salvation) of Lot, his wife and two daughters, read Gen 19:17 "And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be CONSUMED."

It was not the righteous (Gen 18:28) that were consumed by the fire and brimstone.

On the other hand, those who are saved by faith are 'baptized with fire' (Mat 20:22-23; 3:11), which means trials and tribulation. Our faith is tested by 'fire' as we live and breathe, and "he who endures till the end shall be saved." (Mat 24:13)

Point being, one fire consumes to destroy the wicked (Jude 7); the other fire (baptism - consuming) tests and purifies faith (1 Pet 1:7), though it is the same word: Greek 4442 pur.

Timlove from upstate New York on April 28, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43 I share your fustration but there is nothing new under the sun, God has always used a remnant and they always suffered for his sake, Christ himself said how long must i suffer you he was moked and misunderstood by his own brotheren. we are not greater than our master. cease from your own works and enter into his rest brother. looking foreward to reading some of your hubs.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:

"Because he hath appointed a day [called that day and the Day of the Lord in many prophesies], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto ALL men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

All men wait he has given assurance unto all men? no that mus read he hath given assurance unto some men who believed in a hell or some men unto that were saved before they died or unto some denomination or some theology belonging to a few men. NO ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN!!!!!

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:

Judah's Daughter

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

The reward here is avoiding Judgement (second death) those that don't suffer loss and shall be saved YET SO AS BY FIRE!!! FIRE!!! FIRE!!!! FIRE!!! Same as the lake of fire they are judged with the wicked and yet are they tormented NO!! They suffer loss.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:


I appreciate your comment.

I agree God does not need the unsaved to enter hell and be tormented to be eventually saved or cut off or whatever it's just not even in the scriptures.

Just like you I cannot believe how many who say God is love and Jesus is love but thinks Jesus is also like Hitler where he allows or orchestrates some concentration camp where all loved ones who did not accept Christ go to be tormented night and day it's twisted perverted theology that has raped the minds of people for hundreds of years.

The mainstream Christianity (especially evangelical)goes something like this.

God and Jesus love you (if you accept him now otherwise you burn burn burn)

You parents, friends, all those you have loved now before and ever who did not accept Christ are all burning, or will burn in a lake someday or are there now if they are dead. Either they are in Hades, Hell or the lake of fire.

Jesus commanded us to love one another and love our enemies however he himself will throw his enemies in a lake send them to eternal torment where they scream for ever and ever and some how that's ok and is either a show of love somehow or just what God needs to do he commands us to love our enemies but he himself doesn't love his enemies.

Are you getting excited about salvation yet? No I don't understand why?

We never chose to live in this time or place or environment or chose our parents or height are weight are intelligence our location or gender and it is not us who chooses God but God chooses us and yet we have free will.

You are free to choose Jesus and love him No? you reject him ok well you will burn in a fire in hell because you have a free will and if I can't convince you he loves you (even though all you relatives and everyone you love has or will be in hell if they don't accept him ) I will scare you into believing this to be true and If I can't convert you at least I can torment you with all kinds of doubts and guessing what hell is going to be like because I am doing God's work.

This is their perception of the GOOD NEWS of the gospel it's sick twisted and perverted.

It's the GOODNESS of God that leads men to repentance GOD DID NOT COME INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD BUT WHY WHY WHY Can't people see this WHY!!!!!

Because they are stuck in their own theology they are stuck with what their pastors and teachers have taught them and they won't give it up for the GOOD NEWS that Jesus is the savoir of ALL!!!! The savior of the WORLD!!! The World!!! He takes away the sins of the WORLD!!! End of sentence no buts at all!! And yet they blaspheme God all day saying he doesn't save everyone they insult the work of the cross they insult Jesus and all he went through. I feel sorry for them because most don't mean it they are just ignorant (as I was) of the true meaning and Spirit of the word.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 28, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43 Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has NO POWER, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

1 Thes 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:


The seas will give up it's dead and hell(hell meaning the grave not a burning pit where people are tormented)since "the dead know nothing"(Ecclesiastes 9:5) they must come back to life and be resurrected to be judged. And we know Paul said it is

"For our God is A CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

Gehenna fire is the furnace of fire, the unquenchable fire, the everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the lake of fire.

And this fire by five names is God's Judgment:

upon His disciples (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30)

upon the Pharisees (Matt. 23:33)

upon the chaff (Matt. 3:12)

upon the spiritual goats (Matt. 25:32 & 41)

upon trees which bear no good fruit (Matt. 7:19)

upon the spiritual tares (Matt. 13:40)

upon all the WICKED (Matt. 13:49-50)

All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

There is to be judgment upon the wicked and judgment upon God's Elect of The House of God. And both of these groups are judged by the spiritual fire of God Almighty, "For our God IS a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on God's Elect:

"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).


"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Pet. 3:7).

Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death" (Rev. 20:14)


"the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Rev. 21:8).

Jesus comes to us as a Comforter, but also as a Refiner. All the symbolic, spiritual fires of Scripture are the same fire. The fire of Gehenna, eonian fire, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, salted with fire, fire already kindled, God's consuming fire, chaff burning fire, tares burning fire, fiery trials, ministry of flaming fire, and lake of fire are all the same spiritual consuming fire of God. And they all accomplish the same thing--THEY PURIFY!

Your pagan ideology that this pond is is literal and fire is literal is not scriptural the fire is a spiritual fire.

Timlove from upstate New York on April 28, 2012:

Sturgeon1 That still does not prove eternal torment from which there is no escape. There is nothing in the Bible that does prove that. but the once and for all sacrifice of christ is very clear and that is all I will say on the subject. the bible says not to get into vain disputes so I will end on that note.

Sturgeonl on April 28, 2012:

God loves everyone but not everyone loves God. Quotes from Revelation about the second judgement. In the end it clearly states not everyone will enter Heaven.

(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [

(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Timlove from upstate New York on April 28, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43 you seem to be out numbered so I just wanted to say that I agree with you a place of eternal torment from which there is no escape is a gray area in the Bible. However the once and for all sacrifice of Gods son is set in stone. "Every" knee will bow "every" tongue confess that Jesus the christ is lord. The defenition of salvation is you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord.I believe everyone will be saved but you dont have to go through hell before you do

God has always used evil to accomplish his purposes so if hell is what it takes than he will allow you to go through hell. we have free will but God knows what we will choose before we do and he knows what it will take to get us to choose him.

What gets me is people who believe there is a place of eternal torment from which there is no escape do not believe that they or anyone they love are going there. that thought is not bearable for them. God loves everyone!!!

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:


If you are referring to Satan who was a crooked serpent in the Garden of Eden he was created that way by God. Lucifer is not the name of Satan. Lucifer was the name of a king that God cast down from power due to his disobedience. If you are asking where Satan is he is on earth. There is no disobedience in heaven nor will there ever will be since all beings will conform to Jesus and we all know a house divided cannot stand. Please show me the great rebellion in the bible in heaven I would love to read that chapter I cannot find it in any bible. Once again this is more assumptions, false doctrine and myths of pagans infused with the word of God

Sturgeonl on April 28, 2012:

Complex indeed. There are many arguements but all you really have to do is look at the will of Lucifer (the fallen angel) when he chose to disobey God. God did not want it but it happened but because of the will of Lucifer and his disobedience he was cast from Heaven. Where did he go? Call it hell or whatever you want. If there can be disobedience in Heaven in the heart of an angel then there can be disobedience on earth in the heart of a man. Lucifer is after souls and despite Our Lord wishing to save every soul some are lost because of their choice to turn from God.Some just refuse the saving power of our Lord.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 28, 2012:


I would challenge you on free will but that will be another time as I just cannot type it all right now. I would ask you though if Paul had free will on his road to Damascus when God struck him blind. I don't think anyone who was struck blind and audibly spoke to by almighty God would have any other choice but to obey God. Also If it's God's will that none shall perish and Jesus prayed Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven who's will wins out God's or mans? I better quit now or I will write another book here and don't have the time. There is no hell in the bible and to say to is discrediting the scripture. Adam committed the worst sin he started it all and did he land in a pond of torment? No. But all of a sudden now God sends people less than Adam there. You discredit the saving power of Jesus Christ and terrify those trying to be saved. Oops see now I have gone over my time.

CalledToPreach from Indiana on April 28, 2012:

AEQUANIMITAS43, I agree completely with your statement. 90% (if not more) of the people in church never pick up their bibles and check what the pastor teaches is real. I am fortunate to be under a Pastor to requires us to know what He teaches. Frankly, we don't get into the Hell topic all that much. We are in the midst of going through a Revival right now and the devil is fighting us like crazy. I live in a town that has only 5,000 people but 30 different churches. There is a huge spirit of religion and tradition that is blanketing the area.

I agree with you mostly there are a lot of scriptures that people just take a face value and never really look at the 'inner' meaning of it that only the Spirit can reveal to you. Matthew 28:19 is the main verse that is completely out of context and used to support a doctrine and baptismal formula that is anti-Scriptures. I will be writing a hub on this in the next few days to explain why I know this to be true.

Sturgeonl on April 28, 2012:

Very explosive topic. While I agree that Jesus Christ is the saviour for all men not all men choose to want to be saved by Christ. God gave man free will! Those who do not receive the mercy of our Lord Jesus (and there are many souls that do) God can not save because of His covenant of free will given to man. Hell is real but while remembering this it is important to remember His mercy so you do not become fearful about it. To not believe in an eternal Hell is to discredit scripture entirely.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 27, 2012:

Dear japtaker, your humility before the LORD is honorable, and I say that from the depths of my heart. I'm certain the LORD would rather a person not KNOW whether or not they are saved, because they don't judge themselves worthy (which we are not), than to have someone spout off that they ARE saved without the fear of the LORD (entitlement). I've met more 'saved' people that don't even know they're children of God (I simply KNOW/discern by their humility of heart and fruit)...and my heart it so humbled and blessed. Likewise, I've met people that claim to be saved that I KNOW/discern are not (wolves).

Deep, deep in your heart, believe the words of Jesus. Ask Him if these were indeed His words, okay? The New Testament (and a very small portion of the Old) have been altered, no doubt (provable and documented). For instance, there is not a disciple named 'James'! King James decided to change his name from Jacob (reference the original languages) to 'James'. A pastor just prached on this and said, "I guess Jacob sounded too Jewish for them." Get real!

Let me remind you of these three passages to put deep within your spirit, okay?

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal [aionios] life."

2 Cor 6:2 "For He says, 'In the time of My favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.' I tell you, NOW is the time of God's favor, NOW is the day of salvation."

John 11:26, "'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.'" - believe it or not; it is the Truth.

I'm so sorry you were abused by the intimidating/threatening doctrine of eternal hell. Even I was not threatened in such a way, but I've seen those 'hellfire and brimstone' preachers out there that say if you happen to run a red light and swear right before you are killed in the resulting accident, you're going to hell (horrendous!!!!). I focus on eternal life and putting my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. This is what gives me peace. Trusting in His Word.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 27, 2012:

DT - Let's look at the Apostle Peter's words in one of your favorite versions of the Bible, the NLT 2 Pet 1:1 "This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior."

Are there two persons here? NO. The LORD YHVH stated in Hosea 13:4 (NLT) "I have been the LORD your God ever since I brought you out of Egypt. You must acknowledge no God but me, for there is no other savior." Hmmm. So, the LORD our God is both God and Savior?

You don't believe Jesus is God. Do you believe He's our Savior? Isaiah 43:11 NLT states (by the LORD YHVH), "I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no other Savior."

There is no debate. You can go on with your compulsive responses and challenges to the Truth, but as for me, I've turned you over to God, for you are unteachable.

Justin Aptaker (author) from United States on April 27, 2012:

Judah's Daughter said:

"Okay, japtaker . . . Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26, 'everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die.' Do you believe this?"

To answer your question honestly, I must say no, I do not currently believe that. As much as I often wish I had faith, faith is something which mostly escapes me these days. I do not consider myself a Christian at this time, although I would have considered myself to be one when I wrote this hub originally. I am, as trite as it sounds, a "seeker". Whether I will perpetually be a seeker or whether I will ever find remains to be seen. But I do feel quite certain that, whatever I may or may not find in the future, I will not find a universe in which people are consigned to any sort of eternal hell. Of course, if I'm wrong, I suppose that I will most likely find out eventually, in this life or the next!

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 27, 2012:

Well the problem is not just translation there a translation problem but there is a doctrine problem and a lack of common sense problem and an assumption problem. My previous post showed sheoul (which can be found in any bible) has nothing to do with a place of torment and yet it's preached or assumed that it is in pulpits everywhere. So is many other false teachings that you can find in any bible to be a lie. Since there really is no perfect translation one needs to research the Greek to understand it's true meaning not only that but also research the context and history so it's not an easy task however it is much easier since the dawn of the internet. And above all seek the Holy Spirit for answers. I think too many people are lazy and get fed in church whatever the preacher says never researching it for themselves.

I am no authority nor a bible scholar I just have noticed flawed doctrine which is alarming since it's preached everywhere. If nothing I wrote is scriptural than ignore it. But I would advise anyone to seek out the truth in the Word not from an ordained minister of a certain denomination but do your own "bible study". Anyone trained up in a certain denomination may cling to what they believe even if it is in conflict with what is true or what their heart and Holy Spirit is telling them. We see this all the time when preachers aren't what they claim to be and yet people still follow them as if nothing happened. So no secret bible I am afraid just my own research and guiding of the Holy Spirit. You can take any verse in the bible and do an internet search and listen to all translations and points of view on any given topic then draw your own conclusions.

CalledToPreach from Indiana on April 27, 2012:

So AEQUANIMITAS43, since you say there is a translation issue, what super secret Bible do you read that keeps it in perspective?

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 27, 2012:

Judah's daughter we can go round and round I can find plenty of correct interpretations of Judgement, Hell, Eternal torment condemnation etc most of which I already have mentioned but you wouldn't listen anyway.

You said I was tormented by the thought of hell and just chose to ignore it. NO I was tormented by people like you who twist God's word to fit into your theology. Instead of ignoring it I proved hell to be false by researching the text.

Lazarus parable has nothing to do with torment of hell but again If it was you would come away thinking if your are rich and don't help the poor you go to hell. The parable never tells of salvation or Lazarus rejecting Christ or why he was tormented in hell. That's because it's not a parable of hell at all it's a parable of the Jews being rich because they were chosen and ignoring God thus they are tormented and the beggar (gentiles) reaped the blessings instead but your carnal mind believes otherwise. The great Chasm that divides them is Jesus and his ministry

Now your quoted words

Jesus did NOT say in John 11:26 "everyone will never die." He said, "Everyone WHO BELIEVES IN ME will never die. Do YOU believe this?"


Of course but in Rev every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus is Lord and that happens after death so do things happen to you at the judgement after you die? They sure do. And all those that did not believe now believe? Yes

You said:

Martha physically died. Sodom and Gomorra were physically destroyed. Now, what 'fire' are they yet partaking in to this day? The fires of Hades, not Gehenna (the lake of fire, which is the final fire), for look at this (study all four words for 'hell' to know the difference: Sheol/Hades/Tartaroo and Gehenna):

Really they are partaking in the fires of Hades? wow I didn't know that thanks. Hades is a pagan word for the ruler of hell so now you are infusing paganism with your theology like the Jews did during the time of Jesus? Actually the meaning in the bible regarding Hades is the same as Sheol so let's see what the scriptures say about Sheol.


it is silent in sheol (Psalm 31:17)

the DEAD are in sheol (Proverbs 9:18)

souls are REDEEMED from sheol (Psalm 49:15)

there is no work, device, knowledge or wisdom in sheol (Ecc. 9:10)

no praise in sheol (Isa. 38:18—not even from the RIGHTEOUS who are there)

God will RANSOM souls from sheol (Hosea 13:14)

sheol is a place of DEATH (Psalm 55:15)

the DEAD are in sheol (Psalm 139:8)

God is in sheol (Psalm 139:8)

God will DESTROY sheol (Hosea 13:14)

Any note of torment in Sheol in any of these verses? NOPE any mention of a burning fire Nope any mention of a total separation from God? Nope in fact God is in Sheol in Psalm 139:8 and what about devils are they mentioned? Nope

Tartaroo? I guess you mean Tartarus Paul borrowed the word from the famous fable the Book of Enoch. Peter alludes to this ancient legend to illustrate the certainty of retribution without any intention of teaching the silly notions of angels falling from heaven and certainly not meaning to sanction the then prevalent notions concerning the heathen Tartarus.

Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15:8; II Kings 17:10; II Chron. 28:3; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:2.

Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.

The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.

Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment as it would have been had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.

Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.

It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?

Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?

Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned sinners against it were there such a place?

All these truths will not convince you otherwise I am afraid. Your preaching and promoting a pagan hell is very sad.

Thanks for the report on who Satan is it still doesn't prove there is a hell where sinners burn eternally.

Sold Out to Jesus from Indiana on April 27, 2012:


What scripture are you basing that statement off of?

DT on April 27, 2012:


Satan sounds a lot like you, following after a doctrine that the apostle Peter rebuked (aka Modalism/Oneness). Or are you saying Peter was one of the first rejecters of truth?

DT on April 27, 2012:


Satan sounds a lot like you, following after a doctrine that the apostle Peter rebuked (aka Modalism/Oneness). Or are you saying Peter was one of the first rejecters of truth?

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 27, 2012:

For those who have the question about why God created Satan and what His purpose is, I wrote a hub based on my Bible study of this topic:

Here are the results:

So what are the characteristics of the god of this world, the Devil? Looking up all the definitions, here is a summary:

1. He is diligently observant, enchanting and crafty.

2. He is called a twisted serpent and twists the Word of God.

3. He is sly and cunning, artful and malicious.

4. He is an opponent, the arch enemy of good and is an adversary.

5. He accuses God’s children before God day and night.

6. He is a false accuser and slanderer.

7. He endeavors to scrutinize, tempt and try.

8. He is used by God for discipline and wrath (2 Sam 24:1/1 Chr 21:1; 1 Cor 5:5; Revelation 12 regarding the Great Tribulation persecution).

9. He is a liar and the father of lies.

10. He entices us to sin and commit abominations against God.

Because God HATES SIN (any form of unrighteousness), the Devil desires to enslave all people to sin, and to especially cause God's children to sin. He does this to people and through people (Romans 14:13, 20-21; 1 Cor 10:32).

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 27, 2012:

Okay, japtaker, so Jude 7 is translated, "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian/aionios, while Heb 9:14 is translated "Christ, Who through the eternal [eonian/aionios] Spirit..."

Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26, "everyone who lives and believes in Me will never [ou - ruling it out as fact] die. Do you believe this?"

Martha physically died. Sodom and Gomorra were physically destroyed. Now, what 'fire' are they yet partaking in to this day? The fires of Hades, not Gehenna (the lake of fire, which is the final fire), for look at this (study all four words for 'hell' to know the difference: Sheol/Hades/Tartaroo and Gehenna):

Jesus said in Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

Judgment here is krisis - judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation. Commonly, a "negative" verdict which condemns the nature of sin that brings it on.

It sounds like you were 'tormented' in a way, by the idea of eternal fire (hell), so the way you got peace was simply not believing it could be so, but rather temporary. Even if you consider the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 a 'parable' (which of course, is not, as Jesus names names of real people; it is not prefaced as a parable as are all the others, and He doesn't have to explain it to His disciples), the rich man was not told to 'wait it out, for one day you will be delievered, once you've paid for your sins.'

We CAN'T PAY for our sins. If we could, Jesus would not have had to die for us. Stating that was not enough is so sad...rejoice in the Truth! Entrust your salvation to Him alone. He alone is your Savior (Isa 43:11; Hos 13:4).

Jesus did NOT say in John 11:26 "everyone will never die." He said, "Everyone WHO BELIEVES IN ME will never die. Do YOU believe this?"

Think about this as well. If annihilation were the second death, why raise the unbelieving dead at all? (Rev 20:5). They're already dead and as you stated, they know not anything, point. The judgment (sentencing) is coming, and according to the Word, it is aionios.

Ez 33:6 "'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'"

You, if you are a child of God, are a 'watchman', and to tell people they will be saved after their physical death is dangerous. Heb 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment [krisis]."

Once judged [krisis], there is a sentence. Rom 8:1-2 "Therefore there is now no condemnation [katakrima - "the results of judgment" – properly, the exact sentence of condemnation handed down after due process (establishing guilt)] for those who are in Christ Jesus." This does not say, "Therefore there is now no condemation [katakrima] for all."

I pray you will embrace 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal [aionios] life."

Believe [pisteuo] - From pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

2 Cor 6:2 "For He says, 'In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.' I tell you, NOW is the time of God's favor, NOW is the day of salvation."

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 27, 2012:


Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates?

Does Paul say they are reprobates? No he says perhaps. Can't Paul insinuate here that he might be addressing people here in the church who never knew Jesus? Yes. If the scripture said You are sealed unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit but there is always the possibility you can be a reprobate in which case I will leave you and you are dammed I would believe your line of thought.

Also you neglect the other scriptures about the Jews being cut off the tree. Read on friend it also states they will once again be grafted in.

Was the thief who was promised salvation while being crucified from Christ baptized? No and yet he went to heaven.

God himself created the crooked serpent (Satan) so did he not create evil? Is he responsible for the serpent? Can he not transform it after it's purpose is totally realized? Do not the people of the world in revelation marvel how puny he is and are they not surprised that this puny snake deceived the nations? My point is it's not a stretch to think he will redeem all even a puny snake I think you hold Satan in a higher regard then is actually realized. I hope you don't believe his name is Lucifer or that there was a great rebellion in heaven those myths might be clouding your judgement (please please please don't make me explain all about Lucifer and the rebellion myth my typing hands are exhausted). I have enjoyed the dialog. I also want to note I thought just like you for many years. I realized that the preaching of Hell and other teaching in the mainstream church were not consistent and the scriptures seemed to contradict themselves along with God and Jesus saying one thing at one time then another later. It took me a long time to research these things I encourage you to do some research on the original text and true meaning of words in the bible as well.

CalledToPreach from Indiana on April 27, 2012:

We can definitely agree to disagree on this subject, I am fine with that. But to clear up some points - I am not a preacher that goes around preaching hell fire and damnation. I believe that the only time you will loose your Holy Spirit, if you truly received it (you being general term not you AEQUANIMITAS43), is if you are given up to a reprobate mind. Which according to scriptures can happen if you continue to live in sin and loose faith in Christ.

I do believe in God's infinite Mercy and Faithfulness to us, even when I don't deserve it I know that I am forgiven when I repent and ask for forgiveness. He is good all the time and His mercy is endless.

I keep asking about the purpose of satan because I am trying to understand that if he isn't going to go into a pit of fire in the end, it seems like a big trick for him to be roaming the earth seeking to ruin souls, which is scriptural. You say no one will go to hell - but how is a soul ruined if we all go to heaven? What I am saying is that his 'purpose' doesn't make sense. You are right, he hates God and he hates us. So according to what you are saying, even though he hates God. even though he was banished from Heaven due to Pride, in the end he will be in Heaven as well as all those that followed him and denied him.

Also want to point out I am not saying you are saved by Works. However, faith without works is dead and availeth nothing. Baptism, I assume is what you were referring too, is not a work. But commanded by Jesus - He who believes and is baptized is saved. The Apostles understood everything that was taught to them and it all started in Jerusalem. That is when the Great Commission was carried out starting with what Peter said in Acts 2:38. This is how all the Churches that the Letters were written too started out, and this is how it is to be done even today.

The works we do will be tried as with fire. These works should not be our own works but of the Spirit. We must dedicate time in prayer, fasting and the Word in order to really hear the voice of God and His Holy Spirit, in which we will know the works God wants us to do. This is all according to Scripture.

So am I saying that if you do not perform these 'works' that you are not saved? No I am not. Scripture tells us that these works will be tried and if they burn up you will suffer loss but still be saved.

However, what I am saying is that you can loose your salvation by 1) Never receiving it at all by not having faith in Christ and not receiving His Holy Spirit (which makes us joint heirs with Christ). 2) continuing to live in sin and not truly being repentant and being given up to a reprobate mind. God continuously calls us and longs for us, even when we sin, He calls us to repent and turn away from the things we are doing. However, if we turn away from Him and do not live for Him we can be given up to a reprobate mind and be damned.

Paul tells us to be careful and recognize the goodness and severity of God. We were graphed into the Olive Tree of God, ONLY because the Jews were disobedient. We are not the natural branch, but was graphed in due to their unfaithfulness and unbelief. Paul tells us that if God cut off the natural branch due to disobedience and unbelief, we should be very careful because how much more quickly will he cut you off, who is NOT a natural branch.

So what happens when we get cut off? What happens when we are left to a reprobate mind? This, I believe is where we are in disagreement on.

I appreciate the dialog on this, and if I wasn't open to your input I wouldn't of given it this much time and thought. However, in dialoging one must accept questions about said beliefs instead of just a 'yes I agree'.

God bless.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 27, 2012:

Yes Judah I do but the bible never mentions it you didn't pose that question earlier. You wrote paragraph after paragraph defending the use of eternity in the bible. My point was eternity is not even something written in the bible. Aion. aionion,aionios and olam were used to describe times in the bible not eternity.

If I said it would take me ages to win the lottery does that mean eternity? No at some point I would win but it does mean a period of time. I can also say God has been around for ages and it could be defined as even longer period of time even from the beginning and yet I used the same word.

If your definitions of the eternity in the bible were true for example Jude7 would mean eternity as the link I posted points out.

4. Jude 7—"Even as Sodom and Gomorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

The Greek reads: "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian." Well just how long does this "eonian/aionios fire last? Is it really "eternal" as the Authorized Version and you, contend?

A. There is NO FIRE burning in Palestine since the days of Sodom anywhere, let along in the vicinity of these ancient cities. The best archaeologists can discern, Sodom is located at the bottom of what is now a sea.

So it was a time of fire until judgement was completed in Sodom.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 26, 2012:

My question is, do you believe in eternal life ~ everlasting life, and that God is eternal and everlasting? Yes or no would do just fine.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 26, 2012:

Judah's Daughter if you want to read about eternity and it's translations and how there really was no word for eternity and how aion can mean a life a period of time but then also mean Life force etc. I suggest you look at this exhaustive covering of the subject as I do not have the time or energy to explain it here.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 26, 2012:

Ok Calledtopreach

You will refuse to believe God saves once and for all and the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer you are still stuck on works and doing good things to please God as a basis for salvation so if you believe salvation is based on performance then we can't agree. Yes the carnal mind is enmity against God but it's not a basis of salvation. You forget your righteousness is like filthy rags.They that are in the flesh cannot please God that's very true but again you are not losing your salvation if you are in the flesh. We disagree about this even though God said we are sealed unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a free gift no exceptions no strings attached but your carnal mind can't understand this. I too was baptized in the Spirit I too talk in tongues but I too was also deceived by people like you who preach you can lose your salvation by not pleasing God. I really feel sorry for you couple that preaching with the threat of hellfire and losing the Holy Spirit if you walk in the flesh and you have the same old scare junk religion which has raped the minds of people for years.

You seem more anxious in finding out what Satan's purposes are versus why Adam didn't go to hell and why hell does not jive with Gods commanding us to love our enemies. You are asking me why Satan is motivated to blind the eyes of man? You know he hates God so of course he would blind our eyes but you assume it's so they will go to hell. How about so man does not have life more abundantly now? Do you have Satan's mind? I sure don't and I don't care what all his purposes are. The basis of this discussion was is there a hell and your quoting of the eternal punishment by Jesus. I defined eternal you just don't get it.

You mentioned Jesus saying you must be born of water and Spirit which is true in fact John the Baptist said I baptize you with water but one coming will baptize you in fire but did Jesus actually baptize people with fire? No so why should the lake of fire be a literal fire? We are baptized in fire to burn away and cleanse us of our sin in fact the use of the word fire is the same fire used when describing the lake of fire. Did not Jesus say right before he died say it is finished?

The Apostles went on preaching and baptizing for people to be saved now in this life that they might have life and have it more abundantly. Casting out demons is a waste of time because everyone will get saved? I think the one with the demon might disagree if they suffer all the days of their life here on earth. It doesn't mean others will NOT be saved and receive the Holy Spirit on judgement day you assume way to much.

Didn't Jesus say about Judas: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24), but if it was just temporary why would it be better for him to not be born? Very good point in fact that was just brought up on a very intelligent article about how this has been mistranslated in fact there is more of the verse left out of the bible. The correct translations are ouay-Rheims Bibles:

"It were better for him, if that man had not been born."


"It were good to him, if that man had not been born."

Lexham English Bible:

"[It would be] better for him if that man had not been born."

Young's Literal Translation:

"...good were it to him if that man had not been born."

The scriptures were saying better for Jesus this man not be born. If you want to delve deeper in this you can read it here:

All of Paul's apostles abandoned him towards the end of his ministry because they just could not hack it anymore it was too tough for them to walk in the Spirit did they go to hell as well? Did the Holy Spirit leave them? Like I stated earlier we can't see eye to eye so I wish you luck in your quest for salvation by pleasing God and I feel sorry for those you will preach the partial good news to. As soon as they accept the free gift of salvation they will realize it's not free at all by your account. If you were ever truly baptized in the Holy Spirit you would know God's true nature which is infinite mercy, forgiveness and unconditional love. It's the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

We can go around and around but it's exhausting when you cannot see Gods perfect plan for salvation of the World and deny his saving power of all men and the belief of some hell hole God torments people in. Let's just agree to disagree you are not open to the truth about the scriptures so I pray you will someday understand and we can leave it at that. I will leave you with one more bible verse you should meditate on.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living

God, Who is the Saviour of all men, ESPECIALLY of those that believe" - I Tim. 4:10.

DT on April 26, 2012:


Daniel 12:2 indicates that the victims will be HELD in everlasting contempt. Kind of like how you would look upon a fallen warrior (who is dead BTW).

Matt. 25:46 needs a definition. Punishment is described as a DEPRAVATION of something you once held PRIVELEGE to (in this case life). By all means, Annihilation IS eternal punishment.

Judah's Daughter from Roseville, CA on April 26, 2012:

I would simply like to post my two cents on the subject of eternal/everlasting. You used Latin words and definitions, and even the Hebrew and Greek ones. However, let's review a few scriptures on the flip-side of hell, okay?

Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) states, "Many of those who sleep [die] in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Matthew 25:46 (New Testament) states, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

According to my Strongs, the word "everlasting" is the Hebrew word "olam" meaning concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind, eternity; always; continuance, eternal, everlasting.

The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.

What you MUST consider, regarding olam, aionios and even aion is, if you look up everlasting (olam) God/King and eternal (aionios) God, you CANNOT claim that God is age-existant, which implies an end or period of time (Gen 21:33; Isa 40:28; Jer 10:10; Rom 16:26)

•"This is My name for ever [olam]" Ex 3:15

•"Yehovah is everlasting [olam] strength" Isa 26:4

•"The Word of our God stands for ever [olam]" Isa 40:8

•"Eternal [aionios] house in heaven" 2 Cor 5:1

•"He became the source of eternal [aionios] salvation" Heb 5:9

•"Christ, Who through the eternal [aionios] Spirit" Heb 9:14

•"the blood of the everlasting [aionion] covenant" Heb 13:20

•"God...has called us into His eternal [aionion] glory" 1 Pet 5:10

•"into the everlasting [aionios] kingdom of our Lord" 2 Pet 1:11

•"Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" Mat 6:13

•"The Father is blessed for evermore [aion]" 2 Cor 11:31

•"According to His eternal [aion] purpose" Eph 3:11

•"Now to the King eternal [aion]... be honor and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" 1 Tim 1:17

•"Your throne, O God, is for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" Heb 1:8

It sounds like you believe in an everlasting, eternal God and life, right? But, you don't believe hell, as stated in the Word is everlasting and eternal. You can't have one Truth without the other. Think on these things.

CalledToPreach from Indiana on April 26, 2012:

Wow..I sure wish you'd learn what a paragraph was..There is so much here, im picking and choosing what to reply on, its repetitive.

you said: "Salvation is not works and yet you insist you must give up TV shows and bars to be truly saved WRONG!!! A saved Christian has a choice they can walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit. The benefits are far and wide for walking in the Spirit and I have the utmost respect for those that have totally denied all aspects of the flesh to follow Christ but it's not a basis for salvation or eternal life."

Paul to the Romans 8 says this: "4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

You mention its wrong that we don't have to give up things (i.e tv or whatnot) to be saved. To some degree if you are living in the flesh you are carnal. If you are carnal you will have that attitude that you don't have to change to be saved. If you live in the flesh, you CANNOT please God.

So according to your 'theory' it is still ok to not please God because we are going to heaven anyway. Do you know the true definition of Repent? Do you understand what sin is and what it does to your soul and relationship with Christ? You do and must change your life and live solely to Him in order to be truly saved. This is what 'Picking up your cross and follow me' means, this is what being 'Crucified with Christ' is all about. If you call yourself a follower of Him but you go to clubs getting drunk and picking up chicks you are a liar and not in Christ.

Didn't Jesus say about Judas: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24), but if it was just temporary why would it be better for him to not be born?

If he was just going to go to heaven anyway, why would Jesus say this?

I appreciate the prayers, but I have already been Baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues and I am also used in the gifts. God has already revealed more than you could provide for me here.

See, you haven't answered my question at all about - what sense would it make for Satan to be prowling around the earth seeking the ruin of souls - if he would not really ruin a soul since we all go to heaven?

You only said: "I already wrote that Satan is a liar so his the truth is not him so if he influences people he blinds them with his lies and they cannot see the glorious gospel because it's truth his "purpose" which you even established is to punish people and deceive people and God allows that deception until the great day of judgement. Your most grievous error is not dividing discipleship from salvation."

So, according to you, his 'purpose' is to blind us from this glorious gospel our entire that when we die and the truth is revealed; Satan is going to jump out and go 'PSYCH!! Just kiddin ya!' - is that what your telling me?

We know satan is a liar, he is lying to you so that you will deny God and be put in the same place he is going to go on judgement day...according to Scriptures..every single translation of this scripture I have read.

You also seem to forget that Jesus Himself said that in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven you must be born of Water and Spirit - Baptism and Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But yet you seem to think that just by Him dying on the Cross, EVERYONE is saved..and that is contrary to what Christ said and taught, contrary to what His Apostles said and taught.

If what you said was true, the Apostles would of never had to go preaching to the world, baptizing them in the Name of Jesus and having the Holy Ghost fall upon them. If what you say is true, the Bible should stop at the end of John because Acts and the letters to the Churches doesn't really matter, since we all go to heaven anyway.

This is the discipleship you speak of. Jesus wanted a discipleship. He commanded the Apostles to go preach, baptize and cast out demons in His Name.

this was AFTER He died. So if we were already all going to heaven at that point, their ministry was in vain.

AEQUANIMITAS43 on April 26, 2012:

Well "dude" you interpretation of dying or death and separation of God is not my definition nor is it the bibles. The wages of sin are death Adam died there was never any caveat that he would also go to a pagan hell you so fiercely defend. Adam rebelled against God and committed the worst sin in the bible and he didn't go to hell and you gloss over that. He died physically because he didn't eat from the tree of life and he disobeyed God but don't you think the original sin the thing that started it all would deserve hell if your doctrine was correct? For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Really??? If they are in a hell hole burning somewhere how can the dead not know anything? Do they know they are totally separated from God? No! And if it was a total separation how could a soul or anything for that matter without God still carry on living in some manner? How can that be if the dead know nothing? They don't even know they are separated. And your point that There would be no need for Christ to die and suffer if we were all going to go to heaven anyway is not accurate. I said BECAUSE Christ died for us we are all going to heaven. He came to take away the sins of the world. Wait he took away the sins for some Christians? NO THE WORLD!!!! The World is a big place my friend that's a lot of sin!!!! Your "everlasting separation" theory is just wrong since I have never seen the words everlasting separation from God in the bible and I already pointed out the meaning of everlasting translated in the bible is inaccurate. God solved Adam's failure he solved that problem by reconciling us to him through Christ that's why he died. I already wrote that Satan is a liar so his the truth is not him so if he influences people he blinds them with his lies and they cannot see the glorious gospel because it's truth his "purpose" which you even established is to punish people and deceive people and God allows that deception until the great day of judgement. Your most grievous error is not dividing discipleship from salvation. Salvation is not works and yet you insist you must give up TV shows and bars to be truly saved WRONG!!! A saved Christian has a choice they can walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit. The benefits are far and wide for walking in the Spirit and I have the utmost respect for those that have totally denied all aspects of the flesh to follow Christ but it's not a basis for salvation or eternal life. You are saved if you believe in Jesus Christ even Jesus said he that believeth in me shall have eternal life you are adding all kinds of conditions that most Christians add these days. This is why Christians are so messed up they think they are saved one day and the next they sin and think they lost it or don't have what it takes to be a disciple and think that's it I'm going to hell. The Apostle Paul even said that he crucified the flesh lest he be a castaway and not be counted worthy to preach the Gospel. So if Paul was didn't crucify the flesh would he go to hell? This is nonsense. I cannot convince you otherwise so I encourage you to seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit on this. If you want to believe and tell others of a Pagan hell, if you refuse to believe that God took away the sins of the world and only saves a few people who are strong Christians while the others are burned forever and ever you insult the God's saving power through his son. You deny the dead know nothing you ignore the fact God never sent Adam to hell you ignore the wages of sin are death adding all kinds of other details. And you deny God's love and command to love your enemies when you believe God takes his enemies and throws them in some pond to burn for ever and ever (not really a loving act in my book). You don't believe me and I understand because you are not &qu